Full Recap
JEFF – On a quiet Good Friday in 2019, on the coast of Wales, a man is shot with a crossbow.
DEE – There’s not much evidence, no witnesses, and no clear motive.
JEFF – Sounds like our kind of story.
DEE – It’s time to recap the BBC podcast, The Crossbow Killer, on this episode of So Much Crime, So Little Time.
DEE – Doo, doo.
DEE – Welcome to So Much Crime, So Little Time.
DEE – I’m Dee.
JEFF – And I’m Jeff.
JEFF – And this time, we’re gonna recap the entirety of The Crossbow Killer.
DEE – This podcast came out in the summer of 2023.
JEFF – And last time we talked about just the first episode.
JEFF – So this time we’re gonna discuss all of the episodes, the final five episodes.
DEE – If you wanna go check out The Crossbow Killer before listening to this discussion, this is your chance.
JEFF – So we can pause here and give you time.
DEE – Maybe six hours, we’ll just sit here and wait.
JEFF – Just wait and just…
DEE – Just having a sit, having a wait.
JEFF – Maybe check the weather.
DEE – Maybe go use this time to rate us on Spotify.
JEFF – What a great idea.
JEFF – While you’re listening to The Crossbow Killer, rate us on Spotify or Apple Podcast.
JEFF – All right, Dee, I think that’s enough time.
DEE – I think so.
JEFF – All right, let’s jump in.
DEE – Alrighty, so Jeff, let’s start where I love to start, the host.
DEE – I love the hosts in the preview episodes.
DEE – When we did the preview episodes, I noted that I really liked the hosts and their connection to the area.
DEE – But what did you think of episode two to episode six?
DEE – Host vibes.
JEFF – Host vibes.
JEFF – I continue to really love the hosts.
JEFF – I think the hosts in this one do something, I don’t remember if we talked about this last time, but this really hit me towards the end of the series, that the hosts are, like it’s just an unusual setup, right?
JEFF – Like you’ve got the one guy who is Tim, what’s his name?
JEFF – Tim Hinman.
JEFF – So he’s like the narrator, right?
JEFF – Like they don’t call him a host, they call him the narrator.
JEFF – And then you’ve got Mike Perry, who is the producer, but he’s sort of like a little bit of a host, but a little bit of part of the story.
DEE – Yeah, and like part of it, like I totally agree.
DEE – It’s kind of an interesting like dynamic between the two of them, because they never really, they never interact.
DEE – But we do hear from them in equal measure.
DEE – What I really liked about Meg, Mick, I can’t remember how we were supposed to.
DEE – Meg.
JEFF – Well, I think we’re, yeah, we’re gonna have to just say it.
DEE – Like M-E-G.
JEFF – I’m saying it like M-A-K-E.
DEE – Make.
JEFF – Yeah.
DEE – Oh, I didn’t know that that was the word that you were trying to say there.
DEE – Okay, so Maic.
DEE – So what I really enjoyed about him was like, I felt like we were going along in the journey with him.
DEE – Like there was even one part, I think it was in episode five, I have it written down, where like he’s in the car and like he’s talking to us about like, I’m heading over now to talk to this witness.
DEE – But like we’re in the car with them and you can hear the sound in the background is, you can hear the sound in the background, like he’s, you know, driving and kind of updating us, like giving us context as he goes.
DEE – And I just thought even from like a production point of view, I just thought, okay, like it was really good, really well done.
JEFF – Yeah, and I want to expand that out to just show the production quality of the whole show.
JEFF – We talked about this last time, but I think it like, I feel like in the past, we’ve talked about podcasts where the first episode kind of set a tone, had a style, but then that wasn’t the style of the rest of the episodes, right?
JEFF – There was a bunch of them like that, where the first one is sort of an outlier.
JEFF – That wasn’t the case here.
JEFF – I feel like there was a consistent form to all of these, like in terms of the music, the sound effects, the poet who actually I went out and found his name, it’s Rys Yorwith.
JEFF – So he has, sometimes it’s just like a line, like sometimes, but every episode begins with one of his lines.
JEFF – The first episode begins with like a longer poem and then the last episode both begins and ends with his poetry, which-
DEE – It’s really strong.
JEFF – I loved it.
JEFF – Yeah, I thought it was great.
JEFF – And again, the music, I think that like, I have like the little riff from this show, just like, it’s like an earworm.
JEFF – It’s like stuck in my head.
DEE – Yeah, no, I thought the poem was like really interesting.
DEE – I also love, and I spoke about this a little bit in our preview episode, but I love that the poet has like that Welch accent.
DEE – It just felt very authentic, which I think really added to me enjoying this podcast as a whole.
JEFF – Yeah, it does a great job of like setting the mood, taking you, like making you feel like you’re in Wales.
JEFF – And you talked about this last time where like sometimes we get these bits of people talking in Welsh, which I think also just adds to that feel.
JEFF – We hear the rain, we hear the ocean, but then we also hear like a variety of other sound effects that just kind of bring you into the story, which we’ve talked about in the past, like that can be overdone, but I don’t, like here I feel like some combination of like the quality of the production, but also, and I think, and now this is my own bias, like the fact that these episodes were like 28, 30 minutes long, like you’re not there long enough to get kind of annoyed by anything.
DEE – No, no, but they, and yet I don’t know.
DEE – There’s a little bit that I thought was like maybe filler.
JEFF – In the story.
DEE – Maybe superfluous, like slightly.
DEE – But I think generally speaking, they stay pretty tight with the storyline and they cover a lot of ground with it.
DEE – Like there is a lot to cover.
DEE – Like, so we start off in episode two.
DEE – It’s called The Investigation Begins.
DEE – Really strong start, I thought, like the daughter.
DEE – The victim’s daughter, Fiona, is describing the call she got from her brother the morning after her dad was shot.
DEE – And it just sounded like they had a gorgeous, like kind of strong relationship.
DEE – And we start to hear from Fiona kind of throughout the episodes, like even until the end, which is quite nice.
DEE – It’s like that nice personal touch.
DEE – We’re not, we don’t hear from Jerry’s partner, Marie at all, but we do hear from Fiona and it gives maybe Jerry a voice and you kind of, you get to know him a little bit, which is something I think could be lacking if we didn’t have Fiona there to kind of tell that story.
DEE – So I really liked that addition.
JEFF – I definitely agree with that.
JEFF – I think Fiona, I mean, and this is important where, yeah, she’s the victim’s daughter, Jerry’s daughter, but I mean, he was 74 when he was killed.
JEFF – So it’s not like she was like a kid when this happened.
JEFF – She’s a full grown adult and she’s got both, she’s talking with a lot of empathy about her dad, but she’s also talking with the perspective and wisdom of an adult, which I think is really compelling.
JEFF – And yeah, like you said, I agree, the second episode starts really strong with her and then that gets into, we jump into one of these little short poems or just a couple of lines of poetry.
JEFF – I actually wrote this one down from the second one.
JEFF – I didn’t write them all down, but this one I really liked and I wanted to, I can’t do a Welsh accent, so I can’t really do this.
DEE – You should try.
JEFF – Not gonna try.
JEFF – But this is, I think it’s just like, I put this as three lines.
JEFF – I don’t know how long, how he breaks these lines, but this is how it goes.
JEFF – Does he notice it?
JEFF – Tending a seedling in the morning mist, on the leaves, their lurks, the dew of death.
JEFF – It’s real good.
DEE – It’s real good.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – We should cover a couple of key points from this second episode.
JEFF – Do you want to, do you have a summary of this episode?
DEE – So my summary of the episode really would be, like, the police kind of get onto it pretty quickly.
DEE – They seem to, like, rule out people, like, rule in people.
DEE – There is an element of them getting onto it, and then people feeling like they were, like, just making appeals for information, because there was nothing.
DEE – The only thing, and I mentioned this already in the first episode, but the biggest, one of the most important things that I think at this stage in the investigation is the arrow, because it’s so detailed and it’s so unusual.
DEE – And, like, if that paramedic had not looked for it, I think we would be dealing with a totally different situation here.
JEFF – Yeah, so that’s the only piece of evidence.
JEFF – But, like you said, there’s 30 detectives working on this case, which I don’t know what they’re all doing.
JEFF – Like, I guess they’re going, like, door to door.
JEFF – They’re talking to everybody in the area.
JEFF – Yeah, they’re looking at…
JEFF – Yeah, they’re pleading for people to come forward.
JEFF – You know, they’re playing the angle of, was this an accident?
JEFF – Will someone come forward who maybe was out hunting?
JEFF – But, yeah, they really have so little to go on.
DEE – And, yes, we have to note, obviously, Gerald Corrigan, the victim, dies 22 days later, 22 days after he was shot with the crossbow.
DEE – And using the arrow, the police are able to narrow it down to two potential crossbow owners.
JEFF – Yeah, I wanted to mention how they do that because they make these appeals to crossbow owners and sellers.
JEFF – There’s this owner of a place called Outdoor Hobbies, which is the largest supplier in the UK of crossbows.
JEFF – I don’t know how much competition there is for that, but there was a note that this guy gave them, gave the police 17 names of people who bought crossbows in the last 10 years, which kind of tells you the size of the crossbow market in the UK.
JEFF – And then like you said, yeah, they winnow it down to two people.
JEFF – They’re able to rule one of them out, and then the last person is Terrence Wall, who we’re gonna hear a lot more about.
DEE – But like even given that stat, 17 crossbows in the last, what, 10 years?
JEFF – Yeah.
DEE – Like, feckin idjits.
DEE – Like, why would you use such an unusual weapon?
JEFF – You know?
DEE – I don’t know.
DEE – It’s baffling.
JEFF – I think you’re gonna have to say that a couple more times as we go through this, because the other thing that I wanted to call out from this episode is, so the police do go to Terrence Wall.
JEFF – We don’t learn a ton about him here.
JEFF – We’ll get more of that in the next one.
JEFF – But it’s kind of a weird story, right?
JEFF – So they know that he ordered a crossbow, but so the crime happened on the 19th of April, but his crossbow didn’t arrive until the 23rd.
JEFF – So four days after.
JEFF – So it seems like it’s a dead lead.
JEFF – But then without prompting, without the cops doing anything, he offers up that he used to have another crossbow.
JEFF – And he tells this weird story about how he sold it to some random guy a couple months ago who showed up in his totally out of the way house in the middle of nowhere, just happened to be driving by and said, hey, I see that van in your driveway.
JEFF – Can I buy that van?
JEFF – He’s like, no, the van’s not for sale.
JEFF – Hey, what about this crossbow?
JEFF – And he sells him the crossbow.
JEFF – Like, he has all this, like, bizarre details to his old crossbow.
DEE – He also had the phrase, or he spoke about how he had bought that previous crossbow to get the kids out of the house and off the computer.
DEE – And I feel like there might be a better way.
JEFF – I wanted to actually ask you about that.
JEFF – I wrote down a question for you because I know, I mean, we’re both parents, and my kids are a little older, but I’m trying to remember back the things that I bought them to get them off the computer, kind of away from the TV.
JEFF – How many crossbows did you buy?
JEFF – Have you bought for your children yet?
JEFF – Are you not in the crossbow buying phase yet?
DEE – I mean, we’re really holding ice, but there’s a lot of pressure on us at the moment.
DEE – We’ll just have to see.
JEFF – Are you still in, like, the slingshots, or, like, what’s the stages of weaponry that you give your kids?
DEE – We don’t have it at the moment.
DEE – A soccer ball or a basketball to the head is, like, dangerous as we can get.
JEFF – So, like, not a broadsword or, like…
DEE – Knife and fork.
DEE – Apparently a scissors is pretty, is enough for my household right now.
DEE – Keep all the hairs on everyone’s head.
JEFF – Scissors can be dangerous.
JEFF – Dangerous.
JEFF – Anyway, yeah, should we move on to episode three?
DEE – Yeah, let’s do it.
DEE – Okay, The Land Rover.
DEE – I loved the start of this.
DEE – There was, like, the…
DEE – Chris Jones, it turns out he’s a farmer, but he’s speaking in Welsh, and then he’s speaking in English, but, like, with such a strong accent, I actually had to go back to be like, okay, he’s actually speaking my language now.
DEE – So, yeah, so he’s…
DEE – The host is basically interviewing a farmer who lives beside or close to a quarry.
DEE – Jeff, I will give you $100 if you can name the village that this happened in.
DEE – They said it at least, I’d say, five times, and I was like, I don’t understand these sounds.
JEFF – Oh, Dee, this is episode three.
JEFF – I spent episode one looking…
JEFF – I actually still had the map of Wales up all through all of these episodes, but by episode three, I stopped even trying to understand the words, some of the words they were saying.
DEE – I was like, I have no idea.
DEE – Like, I really had no idea.
DEE – I wouldn’t have even known what to Google for this one.
DEE – Like, I had no idea.
DEE – But anyway, like, I’ve written down, like, I have no idea how even to recreate this word.
DEE – Sorry.
DEE – This is where he was recording the summary as he was driving to meet this farmer.
DEE – And I just, this is the part that I was going to say I thought was really effective.
DEE – Go on.
JEFF – Yeah, this is one of the key things I want to talk about from this episode.
JEFF – So this Chris Jones, this farmer, and his description of how he noticed this burning car after he’d had his lunch, I think.
JEFF – And then he talks about the petrol tank blowing up.
JEFF – So that’s the first explosion.
JEFF – And then he talks about, he’s like hiding behind a wall when that blows up and then gets a little closer.
JEFF – And then he hears four smaller explosions.
JEFF – And he’s like, well, those are the tires going.
JEFF – And like, this guy knows a lot about car fires.
DEE – Explosive cars.
JEFF – Like, this is like that guy in like those episodes of Law and Order who like, you know, that bartender who like seems to know a lot of specific information about that one person.
DEE – You’re bad for the Law and Order references recently.
JEFF – I think there’s only been like 10,000 episodes of that show to watch.
DEE – But yeah, like I thought it was really interesting, even like how he like looked into the car, obviously first saw that there was no one there and then was able to call the police.
DEE – But the police note that it’s really lucky that Chris Jones found the car because had he not, I probably would have sat in the quarry, unbeknownst to anyone for so long because it’s so remote.
DEE – So it was an unused quarry.
DEE – I did want to ask, dinner at 1pm, is this normal to Americans as well?
JEFF – See, I thought he was using dinner to refer to lunch.
DEE – No, he was not.
JEFF – Okay, that’s odd.
JEFF – Well, he is a farmer, so maybe he works just an earlier day.
DEE – Maybe.
DEE – It’s a real country thing.
JEFF – Is it?
DEE – Yeah, a lot of people, I know, like if their parents were from the country, they’d have their Sunday dinner at like 1 o’clock.
JEFF – How do you make it through the rest of the day?
DEE – I mean, you have supper, which is basically, you’re basically having lunch later.
JEFF – Wait, is supper lunch?
DEE – Yeah, but like dinner lunch, like a dinner.
JEFF – Is not the meal you eat in the middle of the day lunch?
DEE – No, it’s like this is like a proper like carvery, like dinner.
JEFF – But isn’t the name referring to the time of day?
DEE – Ah, here.
DEE – Anyway, we’re getting off topic.
DEE – The yeah.
DEE – So basically the car.
DEE – They realize very quickly is is owned by Emma Roberts, who happens to live with Terrence Wall of the Crossbow owner.
DEE – So they’re like, well, this is mad.
DEE – And like the police arrive up to where they’re living.
DEE – And like Terrence Wall and Emma Roberts were like, oh, is it gone?
DEE – We were out and we came back.
DEE – And when we came back up to the house, we didn’t notice our Land Rover.
JEFF – Didn’t notice their like one year old Land Rover, which first of all, 60 grand worth of a car.
JEFF – Wouldn’t that be the car you always take?
JEFF – I don’t know what their other car was, but like if I own a one year old Land Rover, that’s the car I’m taking.
DEE – It’s probably a big car.
DEE – So maybe if they’re driving, do they go to the dentist or something?
JEFF – Yeah, I think they go to the dentist.
DEE – But maybe was that triggering for you?
DEE – If they go into the village or whatever, maybe it’s easier to park a smaller car.
JEFF – Wow, you’re really thinking this through.
DEE – Well, we have a larger car for bigger journeys, and we have a smaller car, and the smaller car is way easier to park.
JEFF – You do have a large, large car.
JEFF – That’s true.
JEFF – Anyway, so the weird details start to pile up as the police ask them about the car.
DEE – They have both keys.
JEFF – Yeah, so the car comes with two sets of keys, and they still have them both, as though perhaps the person, if someone stole their car, so snuck in, took the keys, stole the car, parked in the quarry, set it on fire, came back to their house, dropped off the keys, because that’s a normal thing that a car thief does.
DEE – It is.
DEE – It’s so normal.
JEFF – All right.
JEFF – So what else do we talk about from this episode?
DEE – So the next thing I thought was, I don’t know, it gets into introducing a close friend of Gerald Corrigan’s, Wynn Lewis, and they speak about it, and it’s like it’s a nice piece.
DEE – But then at the end, it’s like, you know, this will be really interesting because of what happens later.
DEE – So you’re left with this like little nugget that like we’ve discussed this character, not character, sorry, we’ve discussed this person, but also just remember that for later.
DEE – And I was like, OK, this is, it was slightly off-putting, because I was like, I have to remember someone.
JEFF – Yeah, this actually, this is where the first time I went through this, I got a little stuck because we get this bit about it.
JEFF – So it’s Richard Wynn Lewis.
JEFF – Sometimes they call him Wynn, sometimes they call him Lewis, sometimes they call him Richard Wynn Lewis.
JEFF – So I also like, it’s a lot of names.
JEFF – I don’t know what to call them.
JEFF – And then in addition to Terrence Wall, we get Emma Roberts as his partner.
JEFF – And then we also get Gavin Jones, who is Terry Wall’s friend, who they get arrested at Wynn’s house because of a fight, a weird thing where Gavin Jones and Terrence Wall show up at Wynn’s house with a police uniform, handcuffs and piano wire.
JEFF – And there’s some talk of maybe Gavin had loaned Wynn Lewis 12,000 pounds and wanted it back.
DEE – This is two weeks after the incident with The Crossbow.
JEFF – Yeah, and then we learn that Gavin had been at Terrence Wall’s house when the police first went there, but we didn’t know that in the last episode.
JEFF – So there’s a bunch of weird details that start to stack up, and then the police go to visit Gavin Jones’ house, find petrol cans in his car, and his clothes that he’s hanging out smell like petrol, so they arrest him thinking, oh, this is definitely the guy who set that fire, but then they don’t really have any evidence, so they have to release him.
DEE – And then in the midst of all of this, we got this snippet.
DEE – Now, I really loved hearing about all this, but this episode, I feel like, felt a little bit disjointed in a way, maybe.
DEE – There was a lot of little things that we’re setting up for future episodes, but so we hear from Claire Thomas, who, oh, she used to be a police detective.
JEFF – She was a data investigator for the police, but now she works for a data company.
JEFF – I think she’s out of the police.
DEE – Telematics company, which is basically like, Telematics data is what she was focusing on for the vehicles, newer vehicles.
DEE – So say this fancy Land Rover, and it’s only a year old.
DEE – There’s a black box in it, and it records like the boot opening, or the trunk opening, the door is opening, the seatbelt’s like on and off, the location.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – Yeah.
DEE – That’s wild.
DEE – I never knew that.
JEFF – I went down a rabbit hole with this.
JEFF – This is the thing I was really excited to tell you about.
JEFF – So did you know, you didn’t know about this?
DEE – No.
JEFF – All right.
JEFF – So I didn’t either.
JEFF – I knew a little bit about this, but I didn’t know just the extent of it.
JEFF – I also didn’t know how long this has been going on.
JEFF – This isn’t a brand new thing.
JEFF – This goes back to probably the, at least 10 years or so, like the mid, I don’t know, 2010s.
JEFF – So I read this article on thedrive.com that was basically saying, the premise of it is you think your smartphone is tracking you well, if you only knew what your car is doing.
JEFF – And so it had a bunch of different studies from it.
JEFF – I wanted to share a little bit of this because I thought this would be interesting.
JEFF – So there was a study by The Washington Post on a, and I’ll link this article in the show notes, on the 2018 Chevrolet Volt, that was just using this one car as an example, that showed that the car generated 25 gigabytes per hour of data across every category imaginable.
JEFF – And they said, for context, browsing Instagram for an hour uses only 720 megabytes.
JEFF – So the car is 25 gigabytes an hour.
JEFF – And then they said, in that same study, the researchers bought a used Chevrolet Volt.
JEFF – They bought just the navigation system on eBay, and were basically able to put together the previous owner’s daily life and routine down to where they lived, where they worked, what gas station they went to, simply by just going through the data on this nav system that they bought.
JEFF – Then, I have two more bits from this, McKinsey, which is like a research group or a strategy group, they estimate that the telematics data market will be worth $750 billion by the end of this decade, the 2020s.
JEFF – And they basically said that this data is accumulated by these cars, gets sent back to the car companies, and the car companies turn around and sell it to advertisers, corporations, police states, so like governments, basically whoever wants it and can use it.
JEFF – And there was a whole section where they talked about, and this is where it gets a little dark, if that wasn’t dark enough.
JEFF – So they use an example of abortion.
JEFF – So, right, so there’s states in the US that have outlawed abortion.
JEFF – People are sometimes going across state lines to get the healthcare services that they need.
JEFF – But their cars are tracking them, and they can be punished, so the states can get that data and find that, oh, you went across the border, we know exactly where you went.
JEFF – And they gave an example actually outside the United States, they said in Poland, which is a very anti-abortion country, the government created a registry to track every person who is pregnant and where they seek any type of care.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – All right, that’s my…
DEE – I don’t have words.
JEFF – That is my advertisement for getting an old car.
DEE – That is wild.
JEFF – Yeah, yeah.
JEFF – So it’s happening all over the world.
DEE – What’s so wild is how people, people don’t know about this, Shirley.
DEE – I wouldn’t have known.
JEFF – But just the amount of information on you, like you said, it’s when your car turns on and off, it’s when you open and close the door, and it knows exactly where you are, within a meter, every two to five seconds, that data gets sent back to the car manufacturer.
DEE – And so that’s what they were saying.
DEE – So this Land Rover was set on fire, but the owner didn’t realize that like that data has already been sent.
DEE – So there’s still telematic data for this car.
DEE – So, oh my God, that is wild.
DEE – I figured this is like 2019.
DEE – It’s like a one year old like fancy car.
JEFF – No, no.
JEFF – So, and when you combine that with the data from your phone, right?
JEFF – Like basically wherever you are anytime of day, and I know it sounds like a wild conspiracy theorist right now, but like this is like this is really happening.
JEFF – Like this is, and this isn’t just cars from like, yeah, 2019 or 2024.
JEFF – Like this is older cars even than that.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – So.
DEE – That’s weird.
JEFF – That’s something to think about.
DEE – It’s weird to think that if you sold your car, the person that bought it, even if you used a middleman, the person that bought it could extract that information about you.
JEFF – Yeah.
DEE – Yeah, that’s real scary.
JEFF – Kind of terrifying.
DEE – I don’t like that.
JEFF – Nope.
JEFF – All right, let’s move on.
JEFF – Uh, we’re going to talk more about this because this is going to be pivotal.
JEFF – Like this is the central bit of the case, but so episode four is called Silent Witness.
JEFF – Silent Witness is.
DEE – The car.
JEFF – The car.
JEFF – Yep.
JEFF – All right.
DEE – So there was a lot of like, so they do these really concise and quick, like reminders and recaps at the start of each episode, which I like.
DEE – I think that’s helpful, but also, and they do it like, as I said, they’re very concise.
DEE – They don’t overdo it.
DEE – One thing I found weird about this episode though, was the very start was Terry.
DEE – So Terry Wall is a, among other things, has a few YouTube videos.
DEE – Teaching self-defense.
DEE – And at the start of this episode, there’s like this audio from one of those YouTube videos.
DEE – And it’s like it’s setting the scene for violence though, because it ends with like hand here and then snap.
DEE – And we can’t see what he’s talking about.
DEE – But it goes from that and then jumps in like to Terry Wall was actually tracking Wynne Lewis, which is so odd.
DEE – It goes into the rest of the episode, but I found that weird the way that it was set up like that.
DEE – Did you notice that?
JEFF – I did.
JEFF – I thought that was a little bit strange because we kind of picked back up with that story we heard about Gavin Jones and Terrence Wall getting arrested and that when they did, the police took their phones and Wall’s phone had been, was completely clean except for that tracking app, which seems like a real dumb move.
JEFF – But I actually went and looked at his YouTube channel, which is still live as of this recording, which seems like it shouldn’t be.
JEFF – But there are definitely some comments on some of the videos that were posted after this case came out.
JEFF – My favorite is by someone whose username is MadeInBritain.
JEFF – And this is a comment on a self-defense video.
JEFF – It just says, have you got any self-defense advice against Crossbow?
JEFF – So, yeah, that’s out on YouTube for you.
DEE – But yeah, as we said, we jump in as well, back to the telematic data and like, they can see, they can see like the map that is created from the black box data of the Land Rover.
DEE – So they can see exactly when this went the night before the shooting or the firing.
DEE – Do we call it a shooting a crossbow or firing a crossbow?
DEE – The night before the incident, the night before the murder.
DEE – The Land Rover drives out very close to Terry Wall’s house.
JEFF – To his driveway.
DEE – Sorry.
JEFF – It parks in his driveway.
DEE – It drives from Terry Wall’s driveway, but it doesn’t park in, whose driveway does it park in?
JEFF – It parks in Jerry’s driveway.
JEFF – Yeah, I wrote this down.
JEFF – So the night before, now Jerry’s, they say Jerry’s driveway, but it’s basically like the road that goes to his house.
JEFF – It’s like a country, this is like country driveway.
JEFF – So it’s still maybe a couple of hundred meters away from his actual house, but it’s effectively sitting in his driveway.
JEFF – The night before, sat for a bit, then drove off to a nearby like beach that has a coastal path to Jerry’s house.
JEFF – Stayed there for about 90 minutes and then went home.
JEFF – And then the night of the murder basically does the exact same thing.
JEFF – What goes back to the driveway, back to the beach.
JEFF – We know the opening and closing of the doors, opening and closing of the trunk or boot.
JEFF – And yeah, so they have basically the data that shows, that puts the car at the scene of the crime.
DEE – It’s like 12 minute walk from like his, where the crossbow was fired.
DEE – And like in this episode, they kind of recreate the drive on the night, like kind of a serial-esque kind of way when they’re recreating that drive and they’re having like a conversation as they go.
DEE – I thought that was done really well.
DEE – Then once Terry Wall, sorry, once the Land Rover arrives home at Terry Wall’s house, four minutes after that, the Wall stops using his phone.
DEE – The SIM card is never used again.
DEE – And a text is received by his partner from a new phone.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – And we pop in with Claire, the data investigator, who’s like, so maybe if you commit a crime, getting rid of your phone or your SIM card looks a little suspicious.
JEFF – I mean…
JEFF – Also, all that data is in the cloud.
JEFF – You’re not actually getting rid of the data.
JEFF – Same way burning the car doesn’t get rid of the data that’s in the cloud.
JEFF – That’s not how you get rid of it.
JEFF – One more bit in this kind of litany of not thinking through how the world works today.
JEFF – Terry Wall bought crossbow bolts on Amazon.
DEE – The exact ones that were discovered.
DEE – See, I wonder whether the plan was to get the crossbow and destroy it, the bolts and the heads.
JEFF – Yeah, maybe.
JEFF – Maybe.
JEFF – Because yeah, if you’re gonna buy a murder weapon, pay in cash out of someone’s trunk.
DEE – Don’t use Amazon.
JEFF – Yeah, definitely don’t use Amazon.
JEFF – Oh my gosh.
JEFF – So the last bit, just one other quick bit from this episode I want to call attention to.
JEFF – So we’ve talked about Make Perry and how he’s involved with the story.
JEFF – His mom pops in.
DEE – Pops in for a chat.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – So his mom, I think her name is Tricia.
JEFF – She knew Terry Wall.
JEFF – He gave her massages.
JEFF – Like he was also a masseuse.
DEE – A lovely bloke, a good masseur.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – And then several of Make Perry’s friends also knew him.
JEFF – And there was this one who trained with him.
JEFF – And he was known as Terry Torture, which was more, I think, like a lighthearted nickname because of he was like an intense.
DEE – Well, he said he leaves his clients almost dead because he’s obviously an intense personal trainer or trainer in the gym, which is what you kind of want when you’re going to a gym most of the times.
DEE – You want someone to push you.
DEE – But he did use that phrase.
DEE – He leaves his clients almost dead.
JEFF – I feel like that’s what I hear about like Orange Theory.
JEFF – We have two more episodes to cover.
JEFF – Do you want to go on to the next one?
DEE – Go first.
DEE – Reasonable doubt.
DEE – So in episode four, then Terry Wall is arrested alongside three men, Gavin Jones, Gavin Jones’ brother, and another person I can’t remember.
DEE – I think his name is Michael or something.
JEFF – Wall was arrested and charged with murder, conspiracy to commit murder, conspiracy to commit arson, and conspiracy to pervert the course of justice.
JEFF – The other ones weren’t close enough to the murder, so they were just on the arson, and the…
DEE – Perverting the course of justice.
JEFF – Right.
DEE – So then we move into episode five.
DEE – So these men have all been arrested, and put like, we don’t have a motive still.
DEE – There’s no physical evidence.
DEE – But we have the telematic data.
DEE – So after a bit of back and forth, two of the three men arrested for arson flip, and they say, yeah, we helped burn the car, but we thought it was an insurance job.
DEE – Like, get the car, destroy it, get the insurance payout.
DEE – So because they flip, it obviously strengthens the case that the car was.
DEE – In fact, it was organized by Wall to get it destroyed.
DEE – Yeah, I think that’s all I think I need to say last.
DEE – Go for it, Jeff.
JEFF – All right, so yeah, so those two flip, and then there’s some hope maybe that Wall will flip.
JEFF – But instead of flipping, he comes out with another story.
JEFF – And this was unexpected.
DEE – Yeah, sorry.
DEE – Before we even talk about the story, I thought it was interesting.
DEE – I’d like for a second to talk about the Walls solicitor, who we get to hear from.
DEE – So Aylin Williams.
DEE – It’s such an interesting person to hear from because it’s like quite a recent case.
DEE – But like, I don’t know, I just felt like the idea of having him there for the host to be talking to him, for Meg to be talking to him was just really, I thought it was fascinating.
JEFF – Can you clear something up for the, well, for Americans like me?
JEFF – So solicitor is, what’s the difference between a solicitor and a lawyer?
DEE – There’s solicitors and barristers.
DEE – So a solicitor will deal with like legal, from my understanding, legal stuff outside of the court, and a barrister will be the one to like bring it to court.
JEFF – But they’re both like legal experts?
DEE – Yeah.
DEE – So like in this case, Alwyn or Alwyn, Williams would have had, would have dealt with Wall outside of court, but he would have brought the information to the barrister who would have like stood up in court with the wig on and stuff and fought the good fight.
JEFF – Okay.
JEFF – So Williams, the solicitor, the solicitor doesn’t get to wear a wig.
JEFF – I mean, he can wear a wig, right?
JEFF – Like if he wants to.
DEE – I’m sure nobody’s going to stop him wearing a wig if he wants to.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – This was interesting.
JEFF – Like it was an interesting access.
JEFF – It’s not the type of person that you would expect to talk to the guy doing the podcast, right?
JEFF – Like that was unusual.
DEE – Yeah.
DEE – And Meg asked him two like really interesting questions that lead in to Wall’s defense, which is, you know, he said like, you know, well, obviously Wall changes his stories and like, how did like, how did, what did you make of that?
DEE – And Williams is like, I’m not sure what you’re talking about.
DEE – What are you talking about?
DEE – And he said basically, oh, I just saw his change in stories as like a gradual release of information about the night in question.
DEE – And he did everything as instructed by his barristers and his solicitor.
JEFF – All right, Dee, we’re bearing the lead here.
JEFF – The story that Wall shares.
JEFF – Do you want to tell it?
DEE – I don’t.
JEFF – I was hoping you would.
JEFF – All right, I’ll do it.
DEE – So out of left field, like seriously.
JEFF – So Wall finally says, actually, okay, I was lying.
JEFF – I was in the car at the Land Rover.
JEFF – I was out there those couple of nights, but I wasn’t there to murder anyone.
JEFF – I was having some trouble in my relationship, and I went the first night to meditate and also to scout a location to have gay sex.
JEFF – That’s the way it’s described here.
JEFF – And then the second night, he went there to have sex with his friend, Barry Williams.
DEE – Who is the guy from the self-defense videos?
JEFF – Yeah, in his YouTube videos.
JEFF – And he has answers for every little question, including like, well, the telematic data said only one door opened in the car.
JEFF – He’s like, yeah, that’s because I parked too close to the wall.
JEFF – So he had to climb over the console to get out.
JEFF – And they said, well, what about the boot opening?
JEFF – He’s like, yeah, in the boot, we had baby oil, sex toys.
JEFF – If you find a latex glove, that was ours.
JEFF – But don’t worry if there’s…
DEE – No semen on us.
DEE – It was probably washed off in the rain.
DEE – That was such a weird thing.
DEE – That’s like when he mentioned the other crossbow.
DEE – Like, why is he saying this to police?
JEFF – I don’t know.
JEFF – And then, like, first of all, okay, so that’s the first of all.
JEFF – Second of all, if your alibi is gonna be that you were having this affair with your friend, maybe talk to your friend before, because Perry seemingly immediately turns around, like, nope, that never happened, and I have an alibi.
DEE – I was at my mom’s.
JEFF – Yeah, yeah.
JEFF – So like, why did you think that was gonna work?
DEE – I don’t know.
DEE – I really, I don’t feel like Terrence Wall is going about anything in the right way at all within this.
DEE – I mean, yeah.
DEE – Then we pivot from that wildness back to Win Lewis, and they speak about how Win Lewis keeps coming up within the trial, and yet he’s not on trial.
DEE – He’s not a witness.
DEE – He’s not even in the room.
DEE – Marie was saying on the stand, so just a reminder, Marie is Jerry Corrigan, the victim, his partner.
DEE – She said after a while staying with Win, she didn’t feel safe, so she stayed with Win straight after the incident occurred, the attack or the murder occurred.
JEFF – And she went to him because the last thing Jerry said to her was basically, go to Win.
DEE – Win will take care of you.
DEE – And it turns out she said he defrauded them of $250,000.
DEE – Apparently Win had been allowed to grow a small amount of cannabis on Marie and Jerry’s land to help with Marie’s multiple cirrhosis.
DEE – But turns out quite soon before this incident, it seems, Jerry found that it was a much larger amount was being grown than they thought, and he was really annoyed about it all, obviously.
DEE – So that’s kind of what we hear, and then we’re left on a cliff edge of the verdict is coming soon, and then the episode kind of ends.
JEFF – And then we get to our last episode, which is called The Missing Motives.
JEFF – This is episode six.
JEFF – And so here we get the conclusion of the trial, of Terry Wall’s trial.
JEFF – And so he is found guilty.
JEFF – He’s sentenced to a minimum of 31 years.
JEFF – And I think there’s an interesting bit from Fiona, from Jerry’s daughter, where she talks about how this all only kind of felt real after the verdict was read.
JEFF – We didn’t mention this, but she had, I think, some really emotional and thoughtful commentary about the beginning of the trial and just how kind of disturbed she was by it, but how she wanted to be there for her dad.
JEFF – She wanted to see justice through, and she felt like she wanted to honor him by being there for the trial, but how hard that was for her, which I can’t even imagine how difficult that was for her.
JEFF – You alluded to this at the beginning of this episode, but I really do appreciate how she is kind of woven throughout, and other things we’ve listened to where the victim’s family isn’t as much present.
JEFF – She is very present, and I think she is a very critical element that makes this work really well.
DEE – Yeah, I totally agree.
DEE – I do wonder, is this a bit mad?
DEE – Is it unprecedented?
DEE – Or is there a lot of cases where there’s no motive, there’s no forensic evidence, there’s no witness, and then there’s a guilty verdict?
DEE – It seems like I get the telematic data and stuff, but I don’t know, I was trying, as I was listening to this for the second time, I was thinking, is there any knock-on implications that may occur due to this ruling?
DEE – Will this be used to create a precedent in other cases?
DEE – It will be used to create a precedent in other cases.
JEFF – Yeah, I mean, when I was going over all that, all that stuff about all the things your car knows about you, like, yeah, how could that be used against you, right, when you don’t do anything wrong?
DEE – Yeah, and I don’t know whether, like, obviously in this case, it’s very different because you’re talking about a very rural area.
DEE – Like, there’s only so many things I suppose you could be up to.
DEE – He gave one suggestion of what he was up to, what you might do there.
DEE – And then obviously the other suggestion is just like being out there to murder someone.
DEE – But if you’re talking about a more urban area, I can imagine this being used in a case where it’s not as clear-cut.
JEFF – Yeah, and I worry too just about like, can this data be manipulated?
JEFF – Right?
JEFF – Like, how reliable is it?
JEFF – And again, where there’s no other, there’s no hard evidence.
JEFF – Like, no one saw anyone, right?
JEFF – And there’s just like, in a way, like it seems like an open and shut case, but it’s not based on what we normally base these cases on.
JEFF – And like, if this crime had happened, what, a few years earlier, they wouldn’t have had any of this data.
JEFF – Like, they’d have had nothing.
DEE – And then the other interesting thing about this, I think, is like, he gets charged, but he just kind of remains silent, Wal remains silent.
DEE – What does he make of us?
JEFF – I don’t know, Wal is an interesting, it’s hard to know what to make of him because we hear from like, make Perry’s mom, we hear from these people who say these really kind of positive, glowing things about him.
JEFF – And yeah, he’s kind of a mystery.
JEFF – And yet some of these things that we’ve talked to just seem so dumb, right?
JEFF – Like seem, like such like missteps.
DEE – Yeah, so many of them, like, especially if this is so premeditated.
JEFF – Well, and I think that, so that, that pattern goes through this last episode where a lot of this episode is on Richard Wynne Lewis.
JEFF – And this is hard because Richard Wynne Lewis, again, never directly implicated in this crime, right?
JEFF – But on the margins of it throughout, he keeps popping up, but we just don’t know a ton about him.
DEE – No, we don’t.
DEE – And we get to hear a little bit more from a neighbor of Richard Wynne Lewis’ Aidan McGinn.
DEE – Yes.
DEE – He basically discusses feeling terror over him.
DEE – He was obviously a very vulnerable person, Aidan McGinn, when he moved in, a newcomer to the area just after the Crossbow Killing happened.
DEE – Wynne befriended him and then just started taking advantage of him, like, oh, if you give me money, I’ll do X, Y, and Z, all this kind of stuff.
DEE – I did find Aidan McGinn a bit problematic in some of the terms he was using, some of the ways he was describing Wynne.
DEE – There was a lot of like kind of fatphobic kind of terms and like phrases and stuff using very old school wording even, not necessarily problematic, but like even saying the manageress of the bank at the end.
DEE – I just know that that has been like, that’s a, you know.
DEE – Yeah, that’s true.
JEFF – It was an odd, sort of an odd pivot for the final episode of the series.
JEFF – I mean, it was interesting.
JEFF – It was interesting to hear, and he talked about kind of how he felt almost immediately that he was being conned, but how he just sort of kept giving him money.
DEE – He kind of felt like he couldn’t stop.
JEFF – Yeah, and in a weird way, like we talked earlier about the farmer who spotted the burning car.
JEFF – We have another like just sort of like casual pop-in of a little hero in this story of, so Aidan McGinn just keeps giving Richard Winn-Lewis money.
JEFF – Eventually it gets built up to, he’s gonna get him, so 10,000 quid, which I had to look up.
JEFF – What’s the difference between a quid and a pound and like a dollar?
JEFF – Like it’s…
DEE – Nothing.
JEFF – Nothing.
JEFF – Why are there so many words for the same, I guess that’s the same thing in America.
DEE – There’s lots of words for it.
DEE – So yeah, 10,000 quid in cash for a horse.
JEFF – A racehorse, yeah.
DEE – So Aidan McGinn goes into, and we heard this as well, Marie Bailey had said that he had also taken money for a racehorse and like they never heard or saw this racehorse ever.
DEE – So he goes into his bank and Wynn is outside apparently waiting in his van for this money.
DEE – And he says to the bank teller, I want it.
DEE – I’ve just got written down, go on the bank.
DEE – They were so good.
DEE – They were like, why do you need 10,000 in cash?
DEE – And he’s like, I’m buying a racehorse.
DEE – Who are you buying it from?
DEE – And he said Richard Wynn Lewis.
DEE – And they were like, don’t do that.
DEE – He’s wanted for fraud.
DEE – And he was like, what?
DEE – And then all of a sudden, lots of stuff happened in the bank.
DEE – Yeah, they call the police.
DEE – Yeah, the police get called.
DEE – Wynn is taken into custody, is released on bail as long as he doesn’t go near Aidan McGinn.
DEE – He goes straight to Aidan McGinn, so he’s arrested again and not given bail.
DEE – Then it was just, it was mad.
DEE – I felt like we either should have heard all of this in maybe another episode.
DEE – It felt weird in this episode.
DEE – I know it’s partly to do with what was their motive here.
DEE – I don’t know.
DEE – It didn’t feel tied up enough.
DEE – I feel like we were missing a little bit at the end here.
JEFF – Well, there’s an implication here that is never fully, like we just don’t know, right?
JEFF – Like there’s an implication that Richard Wynn-Lewis was maybe behind all of this all along, but there’s no evidence of that.
JEFF – There’s no clear evidence of that.
JEFF – And so I almost feel like we got the resolution that Terry Wall, who we think is, I mean, he’s the convicted killer in this case, he’s in prison for a long time.
JEFF – And then to sort of like, it’s almost like an add-on, like a coda to the story of like, this other guy also got sent to prison for fraud.
JEFF – And so the other guy who sort of tied up this case, but he was so on the periphery until this moment that it, yeah, it was sort of a strange way to end the show.
DEE – It felt like to me, I think I would have preferred if like, this was a shorter episode, like tying up like the fact that there was a missing motive.
DEE – And then as you said, like a bonus episode or a coda being like, and what happened to win Richard Wynn Lewis?
DEE – Because like back in episode two or three, where like it’s teed up, like you’ll want to know about this guy in future.
DEE – And it’s like this episode, I don’t know.
DEE – It just felt it’s important, but there’s not enough evidence here to make it as important as they think it was being made out to be.
JEFF – I think that’s right.
JEFF – I will say, I think they do a nice job of trying to add a little conclusion on the end, talking about how, yeah, there was never a motive.
JEFF – We do end on a poem, a little bit longer of a poem, which I did write this one down, and I’d love to read it before we give our thoughts.
JEFF – I think that was a nice way to end.
JEFF – Like, there is, even though the…
DEE – It was a great ending.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – The story sort of takes a weird pivot and peters out a little bit.
JEFF – And so something I said earlier, like, it is still so short.
JEFF – Like, you can breeze through this and not feel like, oh, I spent, I don’t know, six episodes on Ian Bailey, say.
JEFF – There’s no…
JEFF – It doesn’t do that.
DEE – The trauma.
DEE – I do think this wouldn’t put me off like recommending someone else to listen to it.
DEE – Like, as you said, it is a small snippet.
DEE – And I will say, when I heard it, I was like, what?
DEE – Oh, my God.
DEE – Like, he’s…
DEE – But it also, it took so many different turns even in the snippet from Wynn’s trial that I was like, I don’t know.
DEE – I need a whole other mind frame for this part.
DEE – Go on, read your poem.
JEFF – All right.
JEFF – This is the poem that ends the show.
JEFF – Will we ever know why, as the birds cry and croak over Hollyhead Bay, an island stunned still, a mist stays as the gulls take off and take away the carcasses to the coves, a spring tide heaves and hides as it brings tears from sea to shore.
JEFF – Out there, somewhere, there’s more.
DEE – I wrote that last line down as well.
DEE – I thought it was such an amazing ending because we’re still left with so many questions.
DEE – Yeah.
JEFF – And I’m not doing this justice.
JEFF – You should really, if you did not listen to it, you should go listen to the actual poet read these.
JEFF – He’s much, much better at that than I am.
DEE – So, Jeff, would you recommend this to a friend?
JEFF – Definitely.
JEFF – I would definitely recommend this.
JEFF – So many things to recommend about it.
JEFF – How about you?
DEE – Yeah, definitely.
JEFF – Can I just say, and we’ve said this in different ways, but I just want to say one closing thing about the car.
JEFF – Three things.
DEE – Hold on, you said one thing, and now we’re bunking it up to three.
DEE – One thing, one A, one B, one C.
JEFF – If they had just used an older car, if he had just used a different car that wasn’t his car, if they just didn’t burn the car, we didn’t really stress that.
JEFF – If they had never burned the car, the police weren’t on that trail.
JEFF – The fact that they burned it and someone saw the burning car is the only reason that the police were like, wait, this is important.
JEFF – They weren’t looking in to the Telematic data until the car burned.
DEE – Why do you think he did it?
JEFF – Burn the car?
DEE – No.
JEFF – Oh, the crime itself?
DEE – Why did he kill him?
DEE – I’m still so confused.
JEFF – I mean, it must have been for money.
DEE – Was he due to get…
DEE – Who was going to pay him?
DEE – Is that why they were outside Win Lewis Richard’s house, allegedly?
DEE – Outside Win Lewis Richard’s…
JEFF – So this is my speculation, and we don’t have evidence of this, but my speculation is Richard Win Lewis had money coming and going all over the place, and he was conning people in all kinds of different ways.
JEFF – And in some way, this was a setup.
JEFF – This was some kind of hit job that went wrong.
JEFF – I feel like, and this is maybe coming more from, like, fiction movies and maybe too many mafia movies that I’ve seen, but, like, the hit man, or I would say hit person, but I feel like it’s in most of these movies, is a man that is maybe good at killing someone, but is dumb at, like, cleaning up their tracks.
DEE – He had a good aim, but he didn’t have a good brain.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – Yeah.
JEFF – That’s my take on it.
JEFF – Why do you think he did it?
DEE – It has to be that.
DEE – Like, there can’t be anything else.
DEE – But, like, if you know someone is not paying their deaths to anyone, and you know the win is, like, shady, are you really putting yourself out there to kill someone because he says he’s going to pay you?
JEFF – I mean, but that’s what we got.
DEE – Like, you’re driving a Land Rover.
DEE – How much money do you need?
JEFF – Where did he get the Land Rover?
JEFF – Mm.
DEE – They did say he was having, like, issues with money.
JEFF – Yeah.
DEE – I don’t know.
JEFF – They did.
DEE – Anyway.
DEE – Anyway.
JEFF – Definitely recommend this one.
JEFF – It was a fun listen.
JEFF – It was.
DEE – It was.
JEFF – It was very well put together.
DEE – Listen, even for the poetry, if nothing else.
JEFF – Just for the poetry.
JEFF – That’s what we’re really here for in the end, is the poetry.
DEE – I’m not here for the poetry, usually.
DEE – That is not what I’m here for.
JEFF – Thanks, Dee.
DEE – English major twice over is here for the poetry.
DEE – You didn’t like Ian Bailey’s poetry.
JEFF – That wasn’t good poetry.
DEE – Maybe if he had read it in an Irish accent, it would have been better.
DEE – It was the Welsh accent that really got me into the poetry here.
JEFF – I will say, now we’ve heard a lot of accents.
JEFF – I like an Irish accent.
JEFF – I really like a Welsh accent.
DEE – I know they’re great.
JEFF – It’s really nice.
JEFF – It’s nice to listen to.
JEFF – All right.
DEE – All right.
DEE – A mysterious cargo ship is found abandoned.
JEFF – A dead body and bags of heroin wash up on the southern coast of Australia.
DEE – A dark tale is going to unfold.
JEFF – We’re gonna preview the podcast, The Last Voyage of the Pong Su.
JEFF – On the next, So Much Crime, So Little Time.
JEFF – So Much Crime, So Little Time is a production of Mime Glove Media. The executive producer is Paxton Calareso. Our associate producer is Blythe Tai. Our theme music was composed by Viacheslav Starostin. If you haven’t done it yet, please subscribe to this show on your podcast app. Don’t forget to give us a 5-star rating and a review. Even better, tell your friends! To join the discussion, look for us on social media. Check out the show notes for all the links. Thanks for listening!
