Bonus Recap
DEE: Hello, everyone.
DEE: Before we begin with today’s episode, we wanted to ask you, have you given us a rating on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you’re listening right now?
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JEFF: We really appreciate it, and thank you for listening.
DEE: In 1982, the peaceful town of Sunnyvale, California, was rocked by the horrific rape and murder of 15-year-old Karen Stitt.
JEFF: For over 40 years, there was no justice or even a solid lead.
DEE: But then, Matt Hutchison, a Sunnyvale cold case detective, managed to bring the murderer to justice.
JEFF: How did he do it?
JEFF: Well, let’s hear an interview with the detective himself on the Fox True Crime Podcast with Emily Compagno.
DEE: On this episode of So Much Crime, So Little Time.
JEFF: Welcome to So Much Crime, So Little Time.
JEFF: I’m Jeff.
DEE: And I’m Dee.
DEE: Welcome to a bonus recap episode.
JEFF: On this show, we’re gonna discuss a single episode of a podcast, not a whole season or series.
DEE: We’ll also have a true crime question of the week.
JEFF: On these bonus recaps, we help you find standout episodes of shows that do single episodes on individual crimes.
JEFF: We look at true crime shows, but also other shows that might have some true crime focused episodes.
DEE: Today, we’re talking about Closing the Cold Case of Karen Stitt, an episode of the Fox True Crime Podcast with Emily Compagno.
JEFF: If you haven’t listened to this episode of the Fox True Crime Podcast yet, you might want to check that out and come back here for the discussion.
DEE: We link to the episode in our show notes.
JEFF: Go ahead, we’ll just wait here for you.
DEE: If you have listened, let’s jump right in.
JEFF: Okay, so before we start a discussion, let’s talk about what this episode of the show is about.
JEFF: So again, this is the Fox True Crime Podcast.
JEFF: It’s hosted by Emily Compagno.
JEFF: It debuted, the show debuted in early 2023, and since then, they’ve put out about two episodes a week.
JEFF: It’s a pretty wide-ranging true crime show.
JEFF: It covers unsolved murders, celebrity crime trials, missing person cases.
JEFF: There are also related topics, like there was an episode on personal safety tips from the Secret Service, and one on the origins of Dracula.
DEE: But the story we’re going to focus on today is an episode that came out on April 2nd, 2024, Closing the Cold Case of Karen Stitt.
DEE: This episode features an interview with a detective who solved the crime, Matt Hutchison.
DEE: Okay, let’s get into it.
DEE: Jeff, initial thoughts?
JEFF: Yeah, well, so I’d never listened to this podcast before.
JEFF: This is my first time listening to the show, but I did know about Matt Hutchison.
JEFF: I had been reading about him in the local Bay Area newspapers for, I don’t know, maybe a year or so.
JEFF: I feel like he’s locally gone kind of viral and is now starting to go a little bit more nationally viral.
JEFF: But what about you?
JEFF: What did you think?
DEE: Oh, the first word I wrote down?
DEE: Jesus.
JEFF: Can you spell that?
JEFF: How do you spell that?
DEE: J-A-Y-S-U-S, J-A-S-U-S.
JEFF: And is that like, does that mean something different?
JEFF: Like I know like feckin is different than its alternative.
JEFF: Is that?
DEE: I don’t know.
DEE: It’s like Jesus, but like not.
JEFF: Is it not sacrilegious to say Jesus?
JEFF: If I say it, does it sound southern if I say it?
DEE: Say that again.
JEFF: Jesus.
DEE: Yeah, it doesn’t sound right if you say it.
DEE: So yeah, my initial thoughts, like if I’m gonna give like one word, my one word on the entire podcast is definitely Jesus.
DEE: It was a lot.
DEE: It was, you know, annoyingly another girl going missing in such a normal like average circumstance, like left at a bus stop or close to a bus stop on a busy intersection, something she did all of the time in a seemingly very safe area.
DEE: And she doesn’t make it home.
DEE: And like, I’ve spoken about this so much.
DEE: Like that’s the common thread that runs through a lot of the stories, even some that we’ve discussed, but it was just so gruesome.
DEE: Not really the retelling of it.
DEE: I feel like they didn’t lay in too much on the gruesome and they did.
DEE: There was a lot of gruesome details, but the story in general was just, jesus, like.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Yeah, well, and I want to just say from the top, so like, we know this area, right?
JEFF: Like this happened in Sunnyvale, California, which is a town between San Francisco and San Jose.
JEFF: It’s a quiet town.
JEFF: It’s the home to, like, now it’s the home to a bunch of giant tech companies.
JEFF: When this happened, it was 1982, which predates most of that, that kind of tech boom.
JEFF: But I looked it up, just to be sure, because I thought I’d knew this about Sunnyvale.
JEFF: So Sunnyvale, in 2023, was voted the ninth safest city in the country.
JEFF: And that was looking at things like violent crime and a bunch of different statistics.
JEFF: And I think it’s been that way for a long time, right?
JEFF: Like Sunnyvale is a safe city.
JEFF: And so that, I mean, that’s come up before in other shows we’ve talked about, where it’s just, it’s so out of place here.
JEFF: You know, if you’re, I mean, she was a 15-year-old girl left alone at like 10 o’clock at night in Sunnyvale.
DEE: 12 o’clock.
JEFF: Was it 12 o’clock?
JEFF: But in a town where you’d think, I mean, she was trying to get to Palo Alto, which also is a very safe town, right?
JEFF: Like it’s two towns over and yeah.
DEE: I did think it was interesting that the host did specifically ask that of the detective Hutchison, like what was the area like?
DEE: Like, would it have been safe to be doing that?
DEE: You know, waiting for a bus at that time of night on that particular stretch of road.
DEE: And he said, like, yeah, again, like he reiterated what you said, like it’s a really safe area.
DEE: And was even probably safer?
DEE: There weren’t as many people definitely back then.
JEFF: Yeah, cause this predates, like, I mean, now that area is surrounded by like LinkedIn and Apple and Google, like they’re all within a few miles of where this happened.
JEFF: But then it was, I mean, it was still kind of coming out of the era where, I mean, this whole, that whole area was just like, I mean, going back a couple decades, it was just all like orchards and fruit.
JEFF: And I mean, now it’s pretty densely populated, but in 1982, I don’t, I mean, I wasn’t here in 1982, but I think it was, it was-
DEE: I wasn’t born in 1982.
DEE: All right, so I usually like to start off just like talking a bit about the host and like how we feel like they did at like telling the story and, you know, did we connect with them?
DEE: And that’s something that we’ve definitely noted.
DEE: It’s been a kind of a common thread where it just takes us a little while, which is normal, I think, for anyone’s ears to get used to someone’s accent or their way of telling a story or how they’re interacting with the people within the story.
DEE: Like, what are your vibes?
DEE: We’re only getting like an hour.
DEE: This is a one hour long episode.
DEE: Like, what are your feelings towards the host here, Emily Compagno?
JEFF: Well, when I learned that she was, her name was Sicilian, I felt a bond with her.
JEFF: But, I did.
JEFF: But also, I mean, honestly, when you said, hey, let’s listen to this podcast, it’s from Fox News, my first thought was, ah, I don’t know if I wanna do that.
JEFF: And then I looked her up and tried to get a little bit of an understanding of like where she came from, what her background was.
JEFF: And yeah, I mean, she’s a Fox News host.
JEFF: I feel like she kind of fits the mold of the Fox News journalist where she’s a little stiff.
JEFF: She’s a little, she kept calling Matt Hutchison sir, which kind of stood out to me, it was very formal.
JEFF: She used some overly academic words, like there’s one point where she uses the word ascertain, where I was like, hmm, ascertain, like who uses that in conversation?
JEFF: So I thought she was a little overly formal.
DEE: Are you going in with an extra judgmental mind, do you think?
JEFF: I 100% was going with an extra judgmental mind, yes.
JEFF: No, like I want to admit to my bias.
JEFF: Like I went in thinking this is a Fox News podcast and I have a bias coming in.
JEFF: What about you?
DEE: Yeah, so I don’t know, part of me thought, like we often speak about how hosts show empathy in their questions and their tone, you know, and how they’re dealing with different people.
DEE: And my thought was like the questions, they were really factual.
DEE: And that, yeah, maybe that lands into what you were saying about her being a little bit stiff.
DEE: It was a little bit cold, maybe, at parts, but in a way I thought maybe that was good, I think, given the focus and the amount of information that they tried to give us in the interview.
DEE: I think Detective Hutchison was given the opportunity to really tell the ins and outs of his process, particularly with Karen Stitt’s case.
DEE: And that’s the part I wanted to hear of it.
DEE: I didn’t want to hear what she was saying.
DEE: And sometimes I want a bit of a mix, I want a bit of a commentary, but definitely with this one, I really wanted to hear what he was saying.
DEE: And I did think some of the elements that she was trying to glean for him were good.
JEFF: Can I defend my earlier?
DEE: Yeah, go for it.
JEFF: I think I came down a little harder right from the start, but I agree with you.
JEFF: I think she let him tell his story.
JEFF: The things I’m talking about, like the language she used, was really minimal, right?
JEFF: It was really like, I don’t mean I didn’t document this, but I would guess that 90% or 95% of the time, it was him talking.
JEFF: Which was great, because I think he was an interesting storyteller.
DEE: That’s an interesting, I’d love to actually note the stat on that, because I’ve actually got a number of quotes down from her that kind of irked me, I suppose, a little bit.
JEFF: All right, let’s get into that.
DEE: Okay, one point she says, Tell us the details, all the gruesome details.
DEE: Don’t love that.
DEE: No, don’t love that.
DEE: We’re talking about a 15-year-old girl, and we’re talking about a family who have been decades waiting for some kind of closure on this.
DEE: Don’t do that.
DEE: Like, that’s not okay.
DEE: And like, then there was, I think there was a couple of questions that I was probably reading into a little bit too much.
DEE: It was like, what was the demographic like in the area?
DEE: Which again, I was like, what’s the lead in there?
DEE: Like, what’s the angle of the question?
DEE: I don’t know whether my biases are going there where I’m like, hmm, I see where you’re going here with this and I don’t like it.
DEE: And then there was the other one.
DEE: The other one is kind of fair, but it was, I want to know if my tax dollars are not completing the job.
JEFF: Yeah, yeah.
DEE: And I was like, oh, so we’re going to make this a political statement that one side is not doing.
JEFF: That was funny.
JEFF: So I wrote that one down too, because I think if we’re talking about the same bit, she was talking about sort of like resource allocation to the police.
DEE: Why wasn’t it solved sooner?
DEE: Is it because of resources?
DEE: Is it because our money isn’t getting to the police?
JEFF: Do you think, was that what she was saying, or were we just kind of coming into that with like coded of like Fox News?
DEE: I don’t know.
JEFF: Like if that was NPR.
DEE: It felt to me like it was pointed.
JEFF: If Ira Glass said that, if Terry Gross said that, do you think Ira Glass would say it?
JEFF: No, I don’t actually.
JEFF: Okay, I don’t think that was coded.
JEFF: I think that was right there.
DEE: I think the last one was, I think twice, and I get what she’s saying with this.
DEE: This is a really interesting story.
DEE: It’s an interesting story from a cold case crime solving perspective, really hearing the ins and outs of it.
DEE: But I think twice during it, she said, I love this story so much.
DEE: And you and I often speak about when we get into talking about a podcast, I often say the word character and like that’s not okay.
DEE: It’s as I’m getting into the flow of it.
DEE: But I’m not interviewing someone that’s very close to the story.
DEE: And I do think there’s a little like she’s so close to this case.
DEE: And she’s saying, I love this so much.
DEE: Did I love hearing Matt Hutchison speak?
DEE: Yes, but I can’t say I love this story so much because again, we’re going back to a 15 year old girl.
JEFF: Yeah, that’s a good point.
JEFF: I’m glad you brought that up because I think that gets to something we have talked about before about like sort of my reservations about this genre, right?
JEFF: Like I think that’s a little bit of the worst of this genre of sort of like turning it into like characters and a story and forget it.
DEE: I’m guilty of it.
DEE: I’m aware that I’m guilty of this at times and you’ve to step back and realize there’s a family, there’s a person often.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: And I mean, I think and I’m, I mean, this is, yeah, this is a horrific case, right?
JEFF: Like this is a gruesome murder.
JEFF: I get how it’s easy when you get sort of so in the weeds with just true crime as a genre that you sort of lose sight of that, right?
JEFF: I’m sure she probably loses sight of that.
JEFF: I think it’s the same that happens if you’re like a crime reporter or if you’re like a defense attorney or something like you’re just like, you’re so in the weeds with crime that you sort of forget that like, like to her family, to her boyfriend, like this isn’t, I love the story.
JEFF: This isn’t a life changing event that that is deeply traumatic and deeply scarring.
JEFF: And you have to maintain that sort of sobriety about it.
DEE: Yeah, just don’t know if she did.
DEE: You mentioned the boyfriend there.
DEE: I’d love to, to kind of start, I suppose, with the end.
DEE: Like what we know about this is that obviously Matt Hutchison is talking about how he solved the case.
DEE: And I loved, well, first of all, the poor guy, like he’s late for curfew, so he’s dropping his girlfriend Karen Stitt off at the bus stop.
DEE: Like this is something they do obviously quite often, and he goes home and then obviously she never makes it home.
DEE: But not only that, he’s obviously the one who’s focused on because he was the last one to see her alive.
DEE: Like boyfriends, partners, like it’s often someone very close to the victim.
DEE: So he had to go through a lot after.
DEE: And because this wasn’t solved, I’d imagine had to go through a lot of his own guilt, plus other people’s maybe questioning of his innocence for a long time.
DEE: And we don’t know until this was solved.
DEE: We don’t know much about him.
JEFF: No, I mean, I presume he was probably 15 or around 15, maybe 16 at the time, right?
JEFF: Like still a kid.
DEE: The guilt, the guilt, especially at 15 or 16.
DEE: You know, that’s a tough age for anyone, but having this on top of it.
JEFF: Yeah, and that he effectively, for what, 40-ish years, just lived with that.
JEFF: And I can’t even imagine.
JEFF: I mean, that’s just…
DEE: Sorry, do you know what I just did in my head?
DEE: You said 40-ish years, and I was like, 20 years ago, I did that thing.
DEE: We’re like the 80s.
DEE: It was only 20 years ago.
JEFF: I know you weren’t born yet in 1982.
DEE: But I’m not 20.
DEE: There was also that interesting, like, pivot back at the end where Matt Hutchison says, like, I had to ring her boyfriend, Karen Stitt’s boyfriend, to tell him, like, that we solved the case, which I loved that circle.
DEE: I loved that.
DEE: And we’ll talk about Matt Hutchison now because I have so much to say.
DEE: But the way he said, like, the boyfriend was saying, like, it has had such an impact on his life, on the way he parents, like, really, like, just permeated through every aspect of his life.
DEE: Which, yeah, I just, I just find that really poignant.
DEE: I don’t know, which I just really felt like, God, this guy has a family now.
DEE: Obviously, Karen Stitt never had that opportunity.
DEE: But what happened to her kind of permeated through, all the way through to his parenting and where he is now.
JEFF: Yeah, I can’t even imagine, like, when he gets to that point where he has his own children, like, I mean, for anyone who has then themselves a 15-year-old and thinking about, like, you never want to let them out of your sight, but at the same time, like, you don’t have control over that, right?
JEFF: You can’t protect them, you know?
JEFF: Which, as a parent, I think is, as my kids have become teenagers, is hard to cope with, that they’re going to go out, they’re going to be in danger.
DEE: Oh, God, can we not do that?
DEE: I might cry.
DEE: That, yeah, no, but you’re right, like, and that’s the realization even when you haven’t been through something as horrendous as this.
JEFF: Well, we should talk a little bit about Matt Hutchison.
JEFF: I mean, he’s the center of the story.
JEFF: It’s really a story about-
JEFF: A little bit.
DEE: I mean, it is really about him.
DEE: How did you feel about that?
DEE: Like, this is like closing the case on Karen Stitt.
DEE: Like, this isn’t a podcast for anyone who hasn’t listened yet.
DEE: This is not a podcast really about Karen Stitt.
DEE: Like, they do bring a little bit in at the end, like, what do you think of her, blah, blah, blah, this, that, and the other, there’s one particular line I loved that I’d love to quote now that I just was like, I love this.
DEE: And this goes back to how much I love this guy.
DEE: I think he’s fantastic.
DEE: I hope she fought back.
DEE: This is Matt Hutchison saying, I hope she fought back.
DEE: I hope she punched him in the face, which I just loved.
DEE: I loved that little quip of like, yeah, I back and hope she did.
DEE: But yeah, we don’t hear that much about her, which we can talk about again later.
DEE: But how did you, first of all, how did you connect with him as soon as he started speaking?
DEE: Because he’s kind of a bit like the host in the story.
DEE: He is the storyteller, really the main storyteller in this.
DEE: So how did you connect with him?
JEFF: Well, like I said before, I had heard of him before.
JEFF: I’d read about some of his things before.
JEFF: I didn’t know the details, all the details of this case.
JEFF: I’d read about some of the other cases he’d worked on.
JEFF: But I’d never actually heard him interviewed before.
JEFF: And I was excited to hear him interviewed because just from reading about some of the things he’s done, which we can talk about in a bit, some of his other cases that he’s worked on, he just seemed like he’s the type of person who is…
JEFF: Well, we’re talking about with true crime.
JEFF: He carries that empathy, right?
JEFF: He has this deep and profound empathy for the victims of these crimes and for their families.
JEFF: And he recognizes that there’s a lot of cold cases, right?
JEFF: This is a common theme.
JEFF: There’s these cases that never get solved.
JEFF: And this is a case that could have easily just no one…
JEFF: Like, why would you pick this up if you’re a detective?
JEFF: Right?
JEFF: Like, there’s so little to go on.
JEFF: It’s so long ago.
JEFF: And no one’s pushing you to do this.
JEFF: And I think that’s what I got from him.
JEFF: Like, no one was pressuring him to take this on.
JEFF: He just felt like it mattered to him.
JEFF: Like, he wanted to find resolution.
JEFF: And that, to me…
JEFF: It really resonated with me.
JEFF: He just struck me as someone who…
JEFF: We can jump around a little bit in the story, but I knew a lot.
JEFF: Like, I know about Sunnyvale and how it’s unique.
JEFF: Well, it’s rare in that the cops in Sunnyvale also work as firefighters and they work as EMTs.
DEE: Wild.
JEFF: They rotate through those jobs, which is…
DEE: I thought that was wild.
JEFF: It’s unusual, right?
JEFF: Like, you don’t hear about that a lot.
JEFF: But that point where he gets rotated out of the police department, he has to go do a stint as a firefighter.
JEFF: He’s like, yeah, but I can’t let this go.
JEFF: I got to keep working on this in my free time.
JEFF: Like, I think that in a nutshell summarizes who this guy is.
JEFF: I love that about him.
DEE: Yeah, I think it was very interesting.
DEE: It was kind of interesting to see another motivating factor was, obviously, he’s got like the familial connection.
DEE: Like, his stepfather, I think it was, who had been a detective in the area, had known about the case, was like, you got to work on it.
DEE: Like, this is the case to work on.
DEE: I agree.
DEE: He just seemed like, he just seems really sound, like incredibly sound, like very empathetic.
DEE: And like, we were just saying how people can lose that.
DEE: Like, sometimes they have to lose it in order to be able to get through the work that you’re doing, but he didn’t.
DEE: And even like, so in the middle of all this, they use genealogy to basically end up finding the murderer.
DEE: But at one point, they find a third cousin of the murderer.
DEE: And it turns out that third cousin had a closed adoption, so doesn’t know his mother.
DEE: And in the midst of all of this, he helps to try and find the third cousin’s birth mother.
JEFF: I love that.
DEE: And he was saying how it was unfortunate that he wasn’t able.
DEE: He was hoping at some point he’d be able to do that for him, but he couldn’t.
DEE: There wasn’t enough information.
DEE: When they got the papers that work, the adoption papers unsealed, it wasn’t there.
DEE: That just goes back to show, this isn’t just he’s in it for this one case, and he’s in it for the glory of being the person who solves it.
DEE: He’s just incredibly sound.
JEFF: Yeah, that came through.
JEFF: I feel like his wonder and awe at the world and its mysteries and just eagerness to help people.
JEFF: He’s that person Mr.
JEFF: Rogers talks about of find the helpers.
JEFF: He’s a helper.
DEE: For any Irish people out there, Mr.
DEE: Rogers is this old fella in a jumper who people used to watch on TV.
DEE: So let’s move on to his process.
DEE: His process was so intriguing.
DEE: We’re going into all of this, focusing very much on the focus of the interviews, very much on his process.
DEE: They really do remove Karen Stitt from the process.
DEE: Karen Stitt is a motivating factor as to why he’s doing all this.
DEE: But when we’re speaking about the next part, it’s very much matter of fact and very much step by step and very much eyes on the prize of actually just getting to the end goal.
DEE: So many other teams had previously tried to correct this case, and they hadn’t.
DEE: So the first thing I found interesting was, he said he basically tried to ignore everything that he knew about it before.
DEE: He wanted to hear nothing about what anyone else thought, no other theories, because what’s the point of following the same theories?
DEE: So I found that intriguing.
DEE: I kind of loved that.
JEFF: That was like the Bonkin McNulty moment from The Wire of just like, let’s just go into this and see, look at this crime with fresh eyes.
JEFF: I love that about him.
DEE: Yeah, I thought that was great.
DEE: And then obviously using genealogy here.
DEE: One thing I’d love to speak about with you is, because I have opinions on this, but the non-police folks that he kind of brought in.
DEE: So we’ve got like the third cousins that he finds with the genealogy testing, and then they share the list of matches.
DEE: There’s one particular third cousin who they go down to, and he basically ends up saying like, I think she was in El Paso, if I could deputize her and make her a detective, I would, because she was so helpful.
DEE: She was very into it.
DEE: I will say I wanted to add this third cousin to the list of people that I want to hang out with.
DEE: I feel like she could join the Hampstead Justice Club from Filthy Rituals.
DEE: So yeah, definitely want to hang out with her.
DEE: And then we go to the ladies.
DEE: The library, the library in the library, right?
DEE: So he does this talk in like a summer thing.
DEE: OK, first of all, pausing right there.
DEE: How much when you heard that, were you like, I need to look up if there’s a summer class on this.
DEE: Like, I need to go and see Matt Hutchison speaking in a library nearby.
JEFF: I mean, the library he talked to as a library, I have spent a significant amount of time in and I would totally go there.
DEE: Yeah, like I’m like, I’ll be like fangirling, be like, oh my God, you’re the best thing ever.
DEE: I need to hear more about your processes and your ways.
DEE: But aside from that, I’m also like, can we talk more about true crime?
DEE: Like this is it’s just so intriguing because what’s great about this episode?
DEE: The police are doing a really good job.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEE: How many how many episodes are we in?
DEE: And we’re like lazy police, lazy police, terrible police.
DEE: These are really good.
DEE: And he’s got like the right heart and the right like mind for it.
DEE: It’s very good.
DEE: Anyway, I think it’s nice to see.
JEFF: It is a nice change of pace.
DEE: Yeah, I loved these these genealogy ladies who are like apparently some sort of experts in it.
JEFF: Well, which makes sense in a way.
JEFF: Like I feel like there’s just there’s people who like, I don’t know, like my mother is into building family trees.
JEFF: Like there’s like it’s a hobby.
JEFF: I think there was an interesting I think this I don’t think this was in the episode.
JEFF: I think this was in I was reading some other articles about this case.
JEFF: And there was a profile of one of these women who and I will link to this in the show notes.
JEFF: But there was a woman who actually maybe they did talk about this in the episode too, who like wanted to help but like had to sort of like steal herself to be like, can I like, can I look at this, this crime?
JEFF: Can I look at these crime scene photos?
JEFF: Can I like, am I going to be okay doing this?
JEFF: Like I am not a police officer.
JEFF: I am not like, this is not my job.
JEFF: I’m doing this as a hobby.
JEFF: And am I willing to go so far as to get involved in this case?
JEFF: And like what kind of psychological toll is that going to take me?
JEFF: And she ultimately was like, yeah, I can do that.
JEFF: I want to help.
DEE: I’d love to hear, like, what do you think about this as it, like on a whole, like using non-civilians?
DEE: What do they call them?
JEFF: Yeah, civilians.
DEE: Is that what we’re called?
DEE: Using civilians in this kind of way.
DEE: Like, I feel like we’re seeing a really good example of this.
DEE: I enjoy that Matt Hutchison was saying, Matt Hutchison, I think, Matt, if you’re listening, I keep putting an extra N in there, I’m sorry.
DEE: He said, like, you know, some detectives, some members of the police force would not entertain this, but like, I don’t know anything about genealogy.
DEE: Like, I don’t know how to figure out the third cousin once removed.
DEE: I don’t even know what that means, blah, blah, blah.
DEE: So he’s kind of using kind of experts in the other field.
DEE: But I feel like that there’s a slightly maybe ethical issue here or…
JEFF: Yeah.
DEE: What are your thoughts on this?
JEFF: I have mixed feelings on it.
JEFF: I think there’s a part of me that is like, you’re trying to do something so impossible.
JEFF: Like, why not get every resource available to you?
JEFF: If these women want to help, great.
JEFF: Let’s get them to help in a responsible way, which, I mean, we don’t have a ton of details on how they helped.
JEFF: But if this was useful, great.
JEFF: I think at the same time, like, that could easily go awry.
JEFF: And I think that there’s risk there, right?
JEFF: Like, they are not trained police officers, and they don’t have the same sort of background screening or, you know, whatever you might want.
JEFF: I mean, I guess that depends on how much faith you sort of put in the police.
JEFF: We’ve done enough episodes on the police being shoddy.
DEE: Do you have any, like, knowledge?
DEE: I don’t.
DEE: It’s a question I’d love to get, like, a solid answer on from someone who does know.
DEE: But what’s the implication in terms of, like, a trial?
DEE: Like, even with members of the police force or lawyers or whatever, who are, like, in this realm.
DEE: That sentence makes sense, in this realm.
DEE: We still have issues with, like, people compromising a case.
DEE: Obviously, this, presumably, the ability to compromise a case increases if you’re not, like, trained.
DEE: You’re not, like, aware of, like, how to compromise a case, like, what compromising a case means, like, what the different avenues would be, or even, like, in the validity of, like, them testing the genie.
DEE: I don’t know.
DEE: I just feel like there’s, like, this aspect of, like, how strong can the case be if people, lay people, kind of get involved?
JEFF: Well, I mean, speaking not as a lawyer, but as someone who’s watched a lot of episodes of Law & Order, Dun, dun, dun.
JEFF: Yeah, I have no idea.
JEFF: I don’t know.
JEFF: I do think, I get the sense of that.
JEFF: I mean, he wasn’t using them in a way that would sort of compromise the integrity of the case.
JEFF: Like, he was using them to help sort of just, like, chase down genealogy leads, right?
JEFF: Like, to kind of, which is another question there that I want to actually throw back to you, but I feel like their assistance on the case was in a way sort of superficial to the legality of it, right?
JEFF: Like, if he ends up finding a match, it’s going to be based on DNA testing, which is what happened, right?
JEFF: Like, it’s not going to be, it’s not going to be based purely on their research, right?
JEFF: Like, their research is a small step.
JEFF: It’s a key step, but…
DEE: But it’s small.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEE: Yeah, that’s fair.
JEFF: But related, I wanted to ask you, so one of the things that he uses is these DNA-collecting sites, like 23andMe and those kinds of sites, and I don’t know.
JEFF: I have opinions about those sites.
JEFF: I guess I don’t feel great about them being these giant warehouses of everyone’s DNA and sort of like family trees.
JEFF: What do you think about those?
JEFF: You’re skeptical of my skepticism?
DEE: I just, I’m like, what are you trying to hide?
DEE: Let’s go back to the question we asked before about hiding a murder from your space.
DEE: I don’t know why I haven’t done one.
DEE: I’m not like eager to go out and do one as such myself, but like I don’t really see the harm in it.
JEFF: Is that because you feel like all you’re going to learn is that you’re Irish?
DEE: No, excuse you.
DEE: I’ve got a colorful background.
DEE: I think there’s Vikings involved.
DEE: Some people from Normandy.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Okay.
JEFF: So you would do it.
JEFF: You would be okay with giving them your DNA?
DEE: Again, I don’t know that I’d pay to do it, but maybe when I’m joining the Hamster Justice Club, when I’m fully gray, I’m not going to say going gray because that’s already happening.
DEE: When I’m fully gray and I’m looking for something to do, maybe that’s what I’m going to be doing.
DEE: Maybe the family tree and like figuring out all of that, like this, I see the joy that it could bring.
DEE: I just don’t, I think people can be a little bit paranoid about like their information, et cetera.
JEFF: Sure.
DEE: I’m not giving it out to anyone like, but.
JEFF: Yeah, I understand the sort of hypocrisy in my stance.
JEFF: I mean, I have a cell phone that is ostensibly listening to me a foot away from me.
DEE: And remember with Pam, she got caught on on her Google Map location.
JEFF: Sure.
JEFF: I use Google Maps.
JEFF: I that data is is out there.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: No, that’s fair.
JEFF: That’s fair.
JEFF: I somehow just like spent sending your spit into these companies seems seems like a bridge too far for me.
DEE: But I mean, can we go back to the fact that this country is run on like private health care?
DEE: How many fluids have you given to like health institutions?
DEE: And what are they doing with that?
JEFF: Yeah, I guess that’s true.
JEFF: I did.
JEFF: I did use blood donation as a way of getting free COVID test during the pandemic.
JEFF: They would.
JEFF: They would test your blood for antibodies for COVID.
JEFF: And I thought, well, that’s that’s like a two for one.
JEFF: Like you donate blood and you find out if you had COVID.
JEFF: Never found out that I had COVID that way.
JEFF: But anyway, I gave you something for free.
JEFF: I got some free cookies out of the deal.
DEE: So that’s good.
DEE: On the note of like ethics, et cetera, like what’s your thoughts on this?
DEE: Cereptitiously, definitely had to Google that.
DEE: Obtaining evidence.
JEFF: Yeah, I mean, that was one of the things I feel like I learned from this, that when you put your trash in the bin at the street, you have effectively…
DEE: Rubbish.
JEFF: Yes.
DEE: Rubbish in the bin.
JEFF: You’re rubbish in the bin.
JEFF: Bin is, yeah, okay, anyway, you’ve basically given that up, and that can be taken by the police.
JEFF: One thing I loved about that, there’s a couple of things I loved about the way he described this.
JEFF: There was the scene in Las Vegas at the rooftop parking lot of the casino where they’re going through the trash, which sounded like a scene out of a movie, right?
JEFF: Just sorting through trash in this bizarre location.
JEFF: But then when he talks about that there’s a couple of possible suspects, and one is in Maui, who is the suspect they end up pursuing, and one is in rural Maine, and he’s like, yeah, we can’t discreetly go out and snag their trash in these places.
JEFF: I’ve lived in rural Maine, and I’ve never lived in Maui.
JEFF: That would be better.
JEFF: But yeah, it’s true.
JEFF: Like in most places in the country, particularly more like built up suburbs or urban environments, yeah, you can go snag someone’s trash and they won’t know.
JEFF: I mean, I remember when I lived in San Francisco, and people would go through our trash every week as soon as we put it out, looking for stuff.
JEFF: But in Maine, you go through someone’s trash, you’re going to get shot.
JEFF: It’s just you can’t do that without being noticed.
DEE: Yeah.
JEFF: Which was interesting.
DEE: I mean, I don’t people don’t do that in Ireland.
DEE: But anyway, oh, they might start doing it now.
DEE: So this is such a random side note.
DEE: They’ve just started like the whole bring a bottle or a can back, recycle and you get money back thing.
JEFF: The like recycling is new to Ireland.
DEE: No, you know, the way you guys like here, the redemption.
DEE: Yeah.
DEE: The redemption song.
DEE: Yeah.
JEFF: I don’t think that’s where that comes from.
DEE: No, I’m joking.
DEE: And yeah, I was kind of thinking the same thing.
DEE: I’m like, God, like, this is so cool.
DEE: I feel like I’ve seen this in like CSI or whatever over the years.
DEE: And then I was like, Oh, there’s some of this that I don’t love in a way.
DEE: Like, yeah, what is love?
DEE: I didn’t love like he’s like, police can always lie.
DEE: Like, you know, people don’t not realize this, but like police can lie.
DEE: And I know, and we’ve spoken about it a little bit over the last few episodes.
DEE: Police get a lot of people don’t have trust in the police.
DEE: What a way to increase the distrust in the police, just that sentence alone.
DEE: And I know that it’s true.
JEFF: Sure.
JEFF: Yeah, like you’re talking about like the different types of ruses that he does, like the, like where he gets the licked envelope.
JEFF: Where that’s that was to me, like, it’s funny.
JEFF: I was licking an envelope the other day and thinking about that, like, oh, shoot, my DNA is on this envelope.
JEFF: I never thought about that before.
JEFF: I just wanted to seal this letter up.
DEE: And you’re not thinking as you’re holding the envelope.
DEE: Oh, my God, my DNA is only on it because I’m licking it, not because I’m holding it.
DEE: Like, my fingerprints aren’t on it.
DEE: Like, my hair might not have got stuck in it.
DEE: No, it’s just that you’re licking the envelope.
JEFF: Well, it actually hit me.
JEFF: It was an envelope that I was sending to the Department of Defense.
JEFF: It’s like, oh, geez, I’m giving the federal government, the Department of Defense, my DNA on an envelope.
JEFF: I never would have questioned that before, but now I’m thinking about that.
DEE: Jesus, how many secret crimes have you committed in the past that you’re afraid of getting caught for?
JEFF: We’re not going to talk about that.
DEE: But yeah, like, I mean, obviously, when we look at this case in particular, like his way, like the surreptitiously getting stuff from people was needed in order to solve this cold case.
DEE: But it and it’s great.
DEE: I’m not saying that it’s not great.
DEE: I’m just saying it does bring up the bigger question of it’s great.
DEE: But what if there was a ruse?
DEE: You know, we’ve seen other police like police putting pressure on and like, to be fair, he’s not putting pressure.
DEE: He’s not keeping someone in for 17 hours for questioning.
DEE: He’s not beating someone up to get the information from them.
DEE: A ruse is better than that, surely.
JEFF: Can we talk about one of his other cases?
JEFF: I don’t know if you read about this.
JEFF: This is one that wasn’t in the podcast.
DEE: I haven’t.
JEFF: Okay.
JEFF: So we’ll link to this in the show notes.
JEFF: But this was, I think, the first time I heard about him.
JEFF: This was an article that came out in maybe early 2023 where, but this is a case that happened in 1996.
JEFF: It’s a seven-year-old girl who, so let me start with the crime that happened.
JEFF: She was at home, answered the phone in the kitchen, spoke with the man.
JEFF: I will link to this article.
JEFF: Someone called the family phone, said that he was a doctor, asked for her address.
JEFF: She gave the address.
JEFF: That was it.
JEFF: Called back.
JEFF: This guy called back, said that he was nearby and that she should sneak out without telling her family.
JEFF: This is a seven-year-old girl.
JEFF: So she gets raped by this guy.
JEFF: That was 1996.
JEFF: There was DNA on her clothing, but the FBI wasn’t able to match the DNA, so it was a cold case for almost 30 years.
DEE: Did she get murdered?
JEFF: No, but still, seven-year-old girl gets raped in 1996.
JEFF: Almost 30 years later, Matt Hutchison comes along, and he works on this case, and he did the same thing he did in this case, where he’s tracking down genealogy.
JEFF: He’s trying to figure out where this DNA could come from, and he goes through all of his leads.
JEFF: He ends up finding this one possible suspect who is still local to the Bay Area.
JEFF: This is a Bay Area case again.
JEFF: This is a guy in San Jose who he looked at his social media.
JEFF: He realized that every St.
JEFF: Patrick’s Day, he goes to the same Irish bar with his friends, and so he has this routine.
JEFF: So he’s like, oh, looks at the calendar, realizes it’s a couple weeks from St.
JEFF: Patrick’s Day.
JEFF: So Matt Hutchison goes undercover as a busboy at this Irish bar on St.
JEFF: Patrick’s Day, and just waits for this guy to show up.
JEFF: When he shows up, he buses his table, he grabs his plate of half-eaten hot wings, a cup of beer, some straws, stuff that has his DNA on it, and makes the match.
JEFF: And this is the guy, and they arrest the guy.
JEFF: But, I mean, this is a case where he…
JEFF: So his tactic was basically to pretend to be a busboy at this restaurant, at this bar, in order to get this guy.
JEFF: So I guess I wanted to tell that story because I feel like it’s a case where it’s such a horrific crime.
JEFF: And if we want to talk about the ends sort of justify the means in the police work, I feel like the ends justify the means for someone who committed this kind of crime, that, yeah, go for it.
JEFF: You can lie about who you are, you can pretend to be a busboy because you solved this crime.
DEE: Yep.
JEFF: There’s, I mean, there’s other ones, there’s other examples of things that he’s done.
JEFF: That one, I think, was the most dramatic.
JEFF: I think it involved him.
JEFF: I mean, he had to pretend he spent basically a shift acting as a busboy in this bar.
DEE: How many glasses do you reckon he dropped?
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: They actually talk about how he felt like, yeah, I look a little old to be a busboy.
JEFF: But, yeah, but he was committed.
JEFF: There were other, so, I mean, just for context, there were some undercover police officers who were in the bar, too, just in case anything went wrong.
JEFF: Nothing did.
JEFF: Like, it all went down smoothly.
JEFF: But, yeah, he was just there to collect the DNA.
DEE: Yeah, I mean, as you said, the end justifies the means.
DEE: I thought it was an interesting, like, situation.
DEE: I hadn’t really thought about, like, the police lying, which is probably a naivety on my part.
DEE: But, yeah, like, fuck that.
DEE: Get the prick.
DEE: I would, I’m like, that’s such a horrendous story.
DEE: I wish I’d read that article before, so I knew how to prepare to respond to that.
JEFF: Can we talk, there’s a couple of other things.
JEFF: Is there other things about Matt Hutchison we want to talk about?
JEFF: If not, there’s a couple of things just about the, like, stepping back from this that I’d like to ask you about.
DEE: The only other thing I think I would like to say is, like, how I definitely enjoyed hearing, like, the process for the arrest and the fact of, like, his superior saying, like, you’re going over there, you’re not making a mess, like, you’re not, like, causing, like, don’t get into trouble, blah, blah, blah.
DEE: And, like, he has to be so, like, careful, like, he can’t rock up to his house, like, he, sorry, he can’t get a search warrant because that would be Californian.
DEE: There’s so many different, like, layers to this that we just hear that kind of would, like, go across lots of different cases, which I thought was interesting.
DEE: I also think, like, as a lover of crime shows in general, if you’ve ever seen one that has, like, these kind of themes in it, like, they move so fast.
DEE: It’s like, you know, murders committed on a Monday and by the Wednesday, Horatio Cain is putting on his glasses, having, like, saved the day again or whatever, or not saved the day, I suppose, but, like, solved the crime.
DEE: But there they are, Horatio Cain glasses.
DEE: I did think, like, to hear the actual timeline was really interesting.
DEE: It obviously takes a lot of determination.
DEE: Like, anyone who’s worked on, like, a long-term project, even in the boring world, not solving crimes or murders or rapes, you know, it can be hard to continuously keep yourself motivated.
DEE: But obviously, that goes back to speaking about Matt Hutchison’s, like, intrinsic motivation.
DEE: Like, he just, he wants to get there.
JEFF: I really appreciate that the host asked him about that, right?
JEFF: She asked him, like, how long it took.
JEFF: I mean, they were talking about years, like, multiple years.
DEE: Five, six years.
JEFF: He worked on this, which is, yeah, I totally agree with that.
DEE: I also think, I’m not sure if this is for, like, a legal aspect or whatever, but Karen Stitt is the person we hear about.
DEE: The boyfriend remains nameless.
DEE: The murderer remains nameless.
DEE: The third cousins, they all remain nameless.
DEE: Really, it’s just Karen Stitt and Matt Hutchison.
DEE: And I just kind of, I don’t know whether that was on purpose or there’s, like, a legal aspect to it, but I actually thought that worked really well because we don’t hear that much about Karen, unfortunately.
DEE: I don’t know whether that’s, like, a show of respect to the family and, like, look, they didn’t know her, like, nobody interviewing the detective didn’t know her.
DEE: But, you know, the focus is really Karen Stitt and Matt Hutchison, and that’s it.
DEE: Like, there are no other names to turn around.
JEFF: That’s interesting.
JEFF: I didn’t think about that.
JEFF: I did, I went looking for what happened later in this case, like, are there any updates?
JEFF: And the name of the suspect is out there.
JEFF: And as of, I mean, when we’re recording this site, it’s interesting because there were some little bits about his sort of pretrial stuff going on.
JEFF: But that was a year, year and a half ago, and I couldn’t find anything more recent.
JEFF: So I don’t know if he’s still just awaiting trial or if there wasn’t it wasn’t reported on.
JEFF: But there was a there was a flurry of news when he had his first hearing, I think, and then nothing since.
JEFF: I think that was like twenty twenty two.
JEFF: So I mean, I know sometimes like it just moves slowly.
JEFF: But but also sometimes things just don’t get reported on, especially like local local news stories.
DEE: I feel like this is a story that will get reported on regardless, though, because there has been a lot of.
JEFF: Yeah, I would hope so.
DEE: Maybe.
DEE: Yeah.
DEE: And yeah, it was just an interesting aside on it.
JEFF: Of course.
JEFF: So I know I know we don’t want to dwell too much on on the murder itself or we want to treat that with with respect.
JEFF: But there was one thing that I that I learned that Matt Hutchison said that I had never thought about or never, never knew, which is where he talks about how in stabbings, which is what happened here, suspects often cut themselves on the knife because he talked about how blood is is particularly slippery, like more slippery than water.
JEFF: And so they’re looking for wounds on someone’s hand from from the knife.
JEFF: Did you know that?
DEE: Yeah.
DEE: And I don’t know why.
DEE: I presume it’s just like an absorption.
DEE: Maybe I heard it in a different true crime podcast or like just watching a lot.
DEE: But like before that was said, they said like the blood of a man was also found.
DEE: Oh, that’s because his hand slipped on the knife.
DEE: Like that 100% went through my hand.
JEFF: That’s an interesting, I don’t know.
JEFF: As we listen to these, these things that just never occurred to me, that one stood out.
DEE: Go on.
JEFF: Well, one thing I want to ask, too.
JEFF: You’ve never listened to the show before, right?
JEFF: Would you listen to more of this show?
DEE: No, I don’t think so.
DEE: I don’t.
DEE: I think this case was particularly interesting.
DEE: It was actually my husband who had pointed me in the direction of it.
DEE: Probably just as it came out, I think it might have been reported on the local news, maybe.
DEE: I’m not sure.
DEE: And so because it’s kind of close-ish to where we both are, that was the interest there.
DEE: I didn’t…
DEE: I mean, look, if there was another interesting one that came up, that I thought, okay, the content of this might be interesting.
DEE: But I didn’t get my…
DEE: God, I’m not able to answer this properly.
DEE: My gut reaction is not like, I want to listen to more of this type of interview.
DEE: I want to listen to more about Matt Hutchison.
DEE: I want to go to see him in a library.
DEE: I definitely want to hear more maybe about Karen Stitt, if anything else on that case comes up.
DEE: But I’m not necessarily going to run back to this particular podcast.
DEE: What do you think?
JEFF: Like I said before, I went in reluctantly because of its source, but then scrolling through the other episode titles, I thought there’s some that I’m not really interested in, like some of the celebrity crime stuff.
JEFF: I’m not that interested in.
JEFF: But it covers such a wide spectrum of crime topics that some of them I’m curious about.
JEFF: And I think, like you said earlier, she put Matt Hutchison so much at the front of this episode and let him tell his story.
JEFF: I’m curious if that’s a common feature of this.
JEFF: So yeah, I might check out another one.
JEFF: I think for any kind of misgivings I have about this one, I think it’s kind of overpowered by feeling like, I was glad I listened to this.
JEFF: I think this was a really interesting one to hear.
JEFF: I had read several articles about this guy, but I still learned a bunch of things that I didn’t know.
DEE: Okay, our true crime question.
DEE: Jeff, how good would you be going undercover, like the way Matt Hutchison has done in a couple of instances we discussed?
DEE: And what do you think are some undercover jobs that you could do to collect DNA evidence?
JEFF: So, I’ve thought a lot about this.
JEFF: Maybe more than I should.
JEFF: I feel like there’s a fair number of movies about police officers going undercover, and I feel like I would be terrible at this.
JEFF: But one of the things that he has done more than anything else, and one of the other articles that we’ll link to in the show notes that I didn’t talk about was another one where he pretends to be a trash collector.
JEFF: Well, actually, more specifically, I think in this case, he just goes and takes trash that people leave out.
JEFF: But there was another…
DEE: In the middle of the night.
JEFF: Yeah, but there’s another story which is a case where they have the suspect who he wants to get the trash from, but this is a person who only always puts their trash out right before the trash truck arrives.
JEFF: So he’s like, all right, I gotta pretend to be the trash collector.
JEFF: I gotta go on the truck.
JEFF: But then there’s the issue of, okay, we gotta keep this person’s trash separate from everybody else’s trash.
JEFF: So he develops this whole plan of like, we’re gonna come down the street, we’re gonna collect this person’s trash.
JEFF: We won’t have collected the people’s trash before it.
JEFF: Then we’re gonna pretend that the arm that lifts up the trash bin into the back is broken when we get to the next house.
JEFF: So we can’t get that one.
JEFF: So then we have to basically like pretend that, oh, the truck is broken.
JEFF: We’re just gonna have to drive back to like out of the neighborhood.
JEFF: So all they end up doing is collecting that one person’s trash.
JEFF: So I feel like that’s such like a layered scam of sorts to get this guy’s trash that I think like, I feel like I would have a lot of fun coming up with the ploy, but then not be able to keep a straight face doing it and just be like, I don’t know, I feel like it requires some minimal level of acting.
DEE: I mean, surely like the acting of like, you know, head phones in, bopping to music, getting the like bins into the bin truck.
DEE: What were, like, that would be fine to do.
DEE: Yeah, I think it’s the interaction thing I wouldn’t be good at.
DEE: And like, as you said, like we’ve seen so many different like shows or whatever where they talk about someone go, or you see someone going undercover.
DEE: I just would be so paranoid.
DEE: Like, you know, they’re gonna find out.
DEE: Like, I wouldn’t be able to do a long one.
JEFF: Yeah, I mean.
DEE: I feel like I could do a short one, a short ruse I’d be able to do.
JEFF: Think about the-
DEE: But the long one I wouldn’t.
JEFF: Well, think about the busboy gig, right?
JEFF: Like, he has to be acting as a busboy in this bar waiting for this guy to come in.
JEFF: Everybody else in the bar doesn’t know that he is a cop.
JEFF: They all think he’s a busboy.
JEFF: And he’s busing tables, right?
JEFF: Like he’s, the people who work there-
DEE: There’s worse things he could be doing though.
JEFF: Well, but the people who work there also have to think that he’s just a busboy on his first day, right?
JEFF: Like the number of-
DEE: That’s fine though, you just do your job badly.
JEFF: You think you could do it?
DEE: I think I could be a busboy for a day.
JEFF: I also just think a busboy is a really hard job.
JEFF: I don’t know.
DEE: Yeah, no, no, no, I did, I can’t say I prefaced when I put it after.
DEE: I effaced, what did I do with it?
JEFF: You epilogued.
DEE: I didn’t like that question actually in the episode, but anyway, so I did say I could do it and I added in at the end badly.
DEE: Okay, I think I could do it badly.
JEFF: Are there other jobs that you feel like you could do if you had to go undercover?
DEE: I think so.
DEE: Make you a good teacher.
JEFF: So jobs that you have actually done yourself in the past.
DEE: Possibly, potentially.
DEE: I think there’s a few that I could do, but again, I don’t know if it’s the job in particular or if it’s the length of time of us.
JEFF: I feel like it’s about the-
DEE: And also the level of danger associated with it.
JEFF: Yeah, all right, so when it’s time for one of us to go undercover, it’s gonna be you.
DEE: I never saw that.
JEFF: I think that’s what you said.
DEE: I didn’t say that.
DEE: Although, you know, could be a bit of a holiday.
JEFF: You’re gonna go to the library, you’re gonna meet Matt, you’re gonna offer your services as an undercover agent.
JEFF: He’s gonna deputize you.
DEE: I’m definitely gonna go to the library.
DEE: I’m gonna have to look up, find Sunnyvale’s website and be like, when’s Matt in?
DEE: Take the day off, go meet him, you know.
JEFF: I can’t wait.
JEFF: Give us an update in the later episode.
DEE: Oh God, yeah.
DEE: More to find myself, no doubt.
DEE: Alrighty, that’s it for us.
DEE: Thank you so much for joining our bonus recap.
DEE: We will talk to you all soon.
JEFF: On our next episode, we’re gonna explore a different kind of podcast.
DEE: One of the big criticisms of the true crime genre is that there is too much focus on white women.
JEFF: So we’ll be discussing a podcast that is all about the stories that often get ignored.
DEE: We’ll be previewing the true crime podcast, Black Girl Gone.
JEFF: Since 2021, host Amara has put out a new story each week about a different black woman who either fell victim to murder or went missing.
DEE: Since Black Girl Gone is a new story each time, we’re going to preview it by focusing on a recent episode.
JEFF: Then we’ll come back on Friday and recap a sample of several more episodes to give you an idea of the spectrum of stories the show covers.
DEE: That’s next time on So Much Crime.
JEFF: So Little Time.
JEFF: So Much Crime, So Little Time is a production of Mind Globe Media.
JEFF: The executive producer is Paxton Calariso.
JEFF: Our associate producer is Blythe Tai.
JEFF: Our theme music was composed by Vyacheslav Starostin.
JEFF: If you haven’t done it yet, please subscribe to this show on your podcast app.
JEFF: Don’t forget to give us a five-star rating and a review.
JEFF: Even better, tell your friends.
JEFF: To join the discussion, look for us on social media.
JEFF: Check out the show notes for all the links.
JEFF: Thanks for listening.
