Full Recap
DEE: Hello, everyone, thanks for listening to this episode.
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JEFF: Dee, how many more episodes are we gonna do on West Cork?
DEE: We have to finish the series.
DEE: This is the last one, we’ll recap the final episodes here.
JEFF: So was this all like a big trick to get us to talk more about Ireland?
DEE: Maybe.
JEFF: And is this the one where you’re gonna see if I mispronounce Gart, Gart, Garde, Gardee?
DEE: 14 episodes plus the six from Inside the Crime Later, and you got there.
DEE: And you just about did it, yeah.
JEFF: Let’s get this one started.
JEFF: Welcome to So Much Crime, So Little Time.
JEFF: I’m Jeff.
DEE: And I’m Dee.
DEE: And it’s time for the thrilling conclusion of our recap of the Audible podcast, West Cork.
JEFF: This is our third episode on West Cork.
JEFF: If you missed the others, they’re right before this one in your feed.
DEE: We’ve already covered episodes one through seven.
DEE: This time, we’ll cover eight through 14.
JEFF: And if you wanna go listen to West Cork on your own, you can find the link in our show notes.
DEE: All right, let’s get back to the story.
JEFF: Story.
JEFF: All right, before we get into this, can we do a quick recap of what we covered in our last couple episodes?
DEE: On December 23rd, 1996, in West Cork, Ireland, a French woman named Sophie Toscan du Plantier was violently murdered outside her cottage.
JEFF: So most of the series up to this point has focused on the main suspect, Ian Bailey.
DEE: Ian Bailey is an English journalist.
DEE: He had a reputation for drinking, odd behavior, and violence.
JEFF: And we’ve also learned a lot about the tensions in West Cork.
DEE: It’s a community of locals and blow-ins, or people looking to reinvent themselves in this rural, rugged area.
JEFF: So as we pick up in episode eight, we are still focused on Ian Bailey.
DEE: Alrighty.
DEE: So Jeff, we have a lot to cover in this.
DEE: So how about we go through a really quick synopsis of the seven episodes starting with episode eight.
DEE: Tell me your thoughts on episode eight.
JEFF: All right.
JEFF: So episode eight is called The Game is On.
JEFF: And so this is kind of a weird one.
JEFF: This one, we get introduced to a guy named Martin Graham.
JEFF: I don’t think we’ve met him before, but basically the cops use him to try to get to Ian.
JEFF: That goes poorly.
JEFF: There’s lots of Martin being a double agent or maybe a triple agent, lots of people wearing wires, trying to spy on each other.
JEFF: And that’s my summary of episode eight.
DEE: Yeah.
DEE: My summary of episode eight, even though you didn’t ask for it, is just the fucking guardie.
DEE: They were just like they tried to put a wiretap on some phones and they accidentally put it on their own phones.
DEE: They put it on all of them.
DEE: So they’re having all of these pretty gas conversations, to be fair.
DEE: I don’t think there’s much that anyone should read into them.
DEE: They’re pretty funny.
DEE: Some funny phrases going on and they’re like, I’m trying to make a jumper out of threads, which I just thought was a really good phrase.
DEE: But I don’t know.
DEE: It was all like this.
DEE: Yeah, as you said, like the secret agent and double agent and triple agent.
DEE: And then Marie Farrell comes back into it and like, she’s trying to stitch Ian Bailey up.
DEE: But Ian Bailey was stalking her out and then there’s hurricane and then she…
JEFF: Yeah, this one was kind of a mess, I think.
JEFF: And what you were alluding to, just to be clear, is that this is like the worst episode of the HBO show, The Wire, where the cops are trying to put a wiretap on a phone, but they accidentally wiretap themselves.
DEE: It is exactly like that.
DEE: That’s a great comparison.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: This is like the Presbyluski, if that was the only one on the wire.
JEFF: There’s no McNulty.
JEFF: There’s no…
DEE: It’s painful.
DEE: Even Ian going in, so basically he goes in to talk to Marie, who’s lured him into the shop in the ice cream parlor.
DEE: There’s an ice cream parlor place and there’s a jukebox on the wall, and he goes in and he is so afraid that there might be a recording device there, that he puts the jukebox on.
DEE: And the host is like, why did you think about that?
DEE: Like, why was that in your head to do that?
DEE: And he was like, well, I saw it in a James Bond movie.
DEE: And I’m just like, oh, my God.
DEE: All of these little bits that are just, he’s so irritating.
DEE: Like, he is like main character syndrome.
DEE: He’s just focused completely on himself.
DEE: It’s infuriating.
JEFF: Yeah, at this point, we’ve gotten so much of Ian Bailey and where he thinks of himself as every main character, right?
JEFF: Like, here, he’s thinking of himself as like James Bond.
JEFF: He certainly, we’ve heard this before, that he thinks he’s smarter than everyone else.
JEFF: And that comes through here again where, yeah, he’s playing, like, he’s aware that Martin is trying to record him or is like working with the police.
JEFF: And he thinks that Marie is, like he’s just, everything is about Ian.
DEE: And they like, they talk, speak a little bit about how, like, Martin, like, somehow convinces the police to give them, to take basically drugs out of evidence and like give it to him to sweeten him up so that he can go and get information from Ian Bailey.
DEE: The whole thing is a mess.
JEFF: Like, yeah, what do you think about that?
JEFF: Like, is that just Martin trying to get free pot?
JEFF: Like, is that?
DEE: It seems like it.
DEE: I don’t know.
DEE: Like, it seems like a really, like, extreme way to, like, get a few joints.
JEFF: If we’re going to go down the wire reference, I feel like Bubbles as a CI, like, a lot more integrity.
JEFF: Bubbles is the best.
DEE: A lot more integrity.
DEE: The other thing about this is we start to hear snippets from Ian Bailey’s diary.
DEE: I don’t know.
DEE: I don’t know how much I want to discuss it, but, like, he basically describes himself as a stud and references, like, animals and, like, how he could feel.
DEE: There was some reference to, like, how much, like, sperm.
DEE: How much, I mean, barrels of sperm.
DEE: Yeah, I’m just like, you’re simply an eejit.
JEFF: I made a note about that.
DEE: It’s like he’s an eejit when he’s sober, but he’s, like, a dangerous eejit when he’s drunk.
JEFF: Yeah, I want to move on from episode eight, but the last thing I want to say about it is, so Martin kind of pops in for this one, and then he kind of disappears again.
JEFF: And there’s a note in here that basically Martin is involved in this little attempt to record Ian making some kind of confession, which never really happens.
JEFF: And then Martin goes underground for, like, 18 years.
JEFF: Like, he basically just disappears.
JEFF: Like, he just kind of is off, and we never hear from him again, which Martin is just like a one-episode cameo.
DEE: Hi-bye!
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Let’s move on from eight.
DEE: So episode nine is called The Moonshine Effect.
DEE: If you don’t mind, I’ll give you my summary first.
DEE: Which is Ian Bailey peacocking around with his woe-is-me attitude, but, like, does nothing to make anyone around him feel comfortable or assure them that he didn’t commit this crime, while at the same time, he’s going around and admitting that he murdered Sophie to numerous people.
DEE: And in the midst of it all, the guardie arrest him again.
JEFF: Right.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Yeah, this was a hard one for me.
JEFF: This, I…
JEFF: So the moonshine effect in the title, did you want to talk about what that refers to?
DEE: Sure.
DEE: So the moonshine effect is like the Transylvania effect, no?
JEFF: Yes.
DEE: Did you know the word lunacy comes from the Celtic word Luna?
JEFF: I did not.
DEE: So basically, it’s all related to the moon.
DEE: Apparently, there’s this whole belief that if you drink on a full moon, it has a different effect on you.
JEFF: Yeah, I’m sensing from your tone that you find this very credible.
DEE: Well, I actually have some feelings towards full moons, towards when the moon is full, when there’s a full moon.
DEE: Oh my God, words.
DEE: When there is a full moon.
DEE: I’m not sure if any other teachers that you know of will describe the chaos that occurs in a schoolyard when there’s a full moon and the kids are outside.
DEE: It just is a different level of chaos.
DEE: It just, fact, there’s a different level of chaos.
DEE: I’m not sure if I think that drinking on a full moon has a different effect on you.
DEE: Ian Bailey seemed to believe that there was like medical evidence backing this up, but I’m not going to believe anything he says.
DEE: But anyway, he uses this as a bit of a scapegoat.
DEE: He uses drink as an excuse for so much behavior throughout the second half of this podcast.
DEE: So from episode 8 through 14, we’ll get to some of.
DEE: But he basically says that, sorry, there was sightings of him in a black hat, underpants, and nothing else, like running around the roads in the middle of the night, skipping along the white line, waving his hands in the air like a bird.
DEE: These are only a couple of examples of this.
JEFF: Howling at the moon has referenced him as the madman moon wizard.
DEE: Yeah.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: I don’t know.
JEFF: I hear what you’re saying about kids at school and the full moon.
JEFF: I think there’s something to that, maybe.
JEFF: It’s hard to take it with Ian, though.
JEFF: He just…
DEE: Well, no, because it’s all peacocking.
DEE: He’s doing it all for a show.
DEE: It’s the only way he can keep himself relevant or in the center of things is acting like this.
DEE: He’s pleased.
JEFF: Well, it’s that and also, I think, the alcohol, right?
JEFF: I think he comes across as a crazy, violent drunk.
DEE: Yeah, but he blames the alcohol.
DEE: It’s not the alcohol’s fault.
JEFF: Right.
JEFF: Sure.
JEFF: But, yeah, okay, okay.
DEE: He uses it as a great excuse throughout.
DEE: But then he also like his whole demeanor is just so frustrating.
DEE: He calls this like whole episode from when Sophie is murdered through, you know, for the 20 odd years, a nightmare.
DEE: But he chooses to stay there.
DEE: Like not once did I hear in the entire podcast, him saying like, he’s living a nightmare.
DEE: What about Sophie?
DEE: What about her family?
DEE: There’s none of that.
DEE: It’s all woe is me, poor old me.
DEE: But he still stays there.
DEE: He chooses to stay there.
JEFF: Well, and beyond just Sophie and her family, I think there’s also the other people in the town who are afraid of him, right?
JEFF: Yeah, he loves us.
JEFF: So there is this one story in episode nine that I want to talk about, Cary, who is one of the neighbors in-
DEE: And a friend of his.
JEFF: Yeah, so she talks about this night.
JEFF: It’s February, so the murder happens in late December, right before Christmas.
JEFF: And this is a couple months later.
JEFF: She’s at home.
JEFF: She references that she’s watching a Woody Allen movie.
JEFF: I don’t know why that’s relevant.
JEFF: But she hears Ian shouting outside, and she’s terrified, right?
JEFF: She talks about staying up all night with a bread knife, which has come up before, and like a poker from a fireplace.
DEE: The other Irish podcast actually.
JEFF: Is the bread knife like the go-to?
DEE: I mean, we don’t have weapons the way you guys have them in the States.
JEFF: Oh, wow, that, yeah, all right, that hits close to home.
JEFF: But anyway, like I think, but my point is that he’s seemingly making like a game of this and a chance to be famous and relevant.
JEFF: And like there’s people in this town who are legitimately scared of him and what he might do.
DEE: Yeah, it’s wild.
DEE: Like even there was an incident as well, one more thing I want to talk about this episode, like there’s a couple that himself and Jules eventually go down to the pub because they’ve locked themselves away for years in this nightmare.
DEE: They go to the pub and they ask this couple to come back to their house after the pub.
DEE: The Shelleys, when they get back to the house, apparently Ian Bailey pulls out like a book or folders with all these clippings about the case and how he’s the suspect and he’s going through them obsessively.
DEE: And then he cries and hugs one of the couple and says, I did it, I did it, I did it.
DEE: Like and yet he’s like, why do people think it’s me?
DEE: Why are people making my life all about me?
DEE: Why are people making my life hell?
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: And there’s one last image.
JEFF: I think it’s the image close to the end of this episode.
JEFF: And then we should move on to episode 10.
JEFF: There is one of the guards who’s observing his house like doing like a stakeout.
DEE: This is so random as well.
DEE: I love that we know this, but it’s also just so random.
JEFF: This is pretty random.
JEFF: And Ian comes out in the middle of the night just like howling, like doing like what he described as wolf and rooster impressions, throwing his clothes off.
DEE: Well, he makes the wolf impression and then he hears a rooster like makes sounds.
DEE: So then he like calls back to the rooster in like rooster language.
DEE: I don’t know.
JEFF: I don’t know.
JEFF: And like he’s out there naked in the middle of the night.
DEE: Throwing clothes around.
JEFF: Throwing clothes around.
JEFF: And yeah, we can move on.
DEE: Well, they end it saying the host says maybe he was indeed fucking mad in the head.
DEE: Because there’s a quote during it that means like I think they think I’m just mad in the head or fucking mad in the head or whatever.
DEE: So then the host ends it with that one, which I did like the end of that.
DEE: I’m like, I did feel as we’re moving through the episodes, I don’t know if you did as well, that I could feel the hosts getting less and less patient with him and more and more disgusted in his attitude.
DEE: Whereas at the start, it felt very cordial.
DEE: I feel like the level of disgust was increasing as the episodes went on.
JEFF: I think that’s right.
JEFF: I mean, it seems like the host spent a significant amount of time with Ian over what?
JEFF: Years?
DEE: Two years, I think they said that they were there.
DEE: And then they went back, yeah.
JEFF: And I can kind of see how they were maybe like just sort of caught up in his whole thing.
JEFF: But at some point, you must start to question that.
JEFF: All right, let’s move on to episode 10.
JEFF: Do you want to give your summary of episode 10 or do you want me to?
DEE: You go first.
JEFF: All right, I have a long one for this one.
JEFF: I feel like this one a lot happened.
JEFF: So this is where we get a lot about Ian’s libel suit against the guards, which was the opening of episode one.
JEFF: So this is where we get more of that story.
JEFF: And then the guards are basically trying to take advantage of the fact that he is suing.
JEFF: So he’s basically suing eight newspapers for libel.
JEFF: But it’s a chance to basically have a day in court where all of this evidence gets surfaced.
JEFF: So a lot of bad stuff about Ian comes out, including these domestic abuse cases with Jules.
JEFF: And then we get more about Jules, like basically her rationalizations about why she stayed with Ian despite the violence.
JEFF: This one’s a pretty dark one.
DEE: It is a pretty dark one.
DEE: I thought it was interesting the way the guards kind of infiltrated this case.
DEE: So the DPP wouldn’t take the case against Ian.
DEE: They didn’t feel like there was enough evidence to pursue the case against Ian for the murder of Sophie.
DEE: But when he takes this case against the guards, the guards use it as an opportunity to bring up a lot of evidence against him, kind of seeing how he reacts, etc.
DEE: One of the biggest things that was brought out was his journals, where his writings are, which depict a lot of violent scenarios with Jules and a lot of, what’s the word, not dreams or premonitions.
JEFF: Fantasies?
DEE: Yeah.
JEFF: There’s like graphic fantasies about sex and violence.
DEE: Yeah.
DEE: They also pull up like previous issues that he had been arrested for or that Jules had gone to where he had basically beaten the crap out of Jules, more or less.
DEE: It’s really graphic.
DEE: And what’s so upsetting, I think, what’s so heavy about this episode or what I found so heavy, I don’t know, Jeff, if you would agree or not, but it was how Ian managed to further isolate Jules with his diminishing attitude towards all of his actions, all of the violence.
DEE: You can see Jules using the same language as Ian Bailey.
DEE: They discuss a lot about, well, it wasn’t premeditated.
DEE: It wasn’t premeditated.
DEE: And she’s got all these different phrases that he’s also saying.
DEE: And how the people closest to Jules start to back away when after all of these stories come out, after all these instances that they witness, she continues to stay and continues to let him stay.
DEE: And people just move back.
DEE: And again, it reminds me of the Hamster Justice League, is all I can remember, what’s the name of that podcast that we did.
JEFF: Filthy Richels.
JEFF: Filthy Richels.
DEE: I feel like this is every episode.
DEE: I can’t remember it.
DEE: I just think of the Hamster Justice League.
JEFF: Well, as you remember, we wanted to redo that whole show.
JEFF: And so if we redid it, it would be called the Hamster Justice League.
DEE: But they speak a lot there about how addiction can be isolating.
DEE: And even when people went through that scam, they felt isolated, kind of felt embarrassed or whatever.
DEE: And I feel like that kind of twigs something.
DEE: This episode kind of twigs something kind of connecting to that episode where Jules is just getting more and more isolated as people.
DEE: They just back away from her.
JEFF: Well, and this happens over quite a few years.
JEFF: And I wrote down a lot of notes about this and I wanted to just mention some of it.
JEFF: This is, like I said, this is a rough episode.
JEFF: But so this lawsuit, this libel suit happens, well, the verdict comes out in 2004.
JEFF: I think it probably started in 2003.
JEFF: But the incidents with Jules started in 1993.
JEFF: That was the first one where, I mean, it’s described as basically a savage beating of her.
JEFF: And so that was 93.
JEFF: In 1996, they are driving home from a party and have a fight in the car where he’s driving the car.
JEFF: And they describe her, like, really in detail, her graphic injuries that she had that just sound horrific.
DEE: Clumps of hair out of her head.
JEFF: Yeah, I mean, it’s, yeah.
JEFF: But that he did that while driving, basically with one hand.
JEFF: With one hand, he effectively just beat the shit out of her.
JEFF: And then that was 1996.
JEFF: And then in 2001, he had a broken leg.
JEFF: His leg was in a cast, and he apparently kicked her in the face with the cast.
JEFF: That’s what he got arrested in 2001 for that.
JEFF: So that’s over the span of what, from 1993 to 2001.
DEE: And every single one of them, he just dismisses.
DEE: Like, the first one that is spoken about there, it was at 93.
DEE: When I was listening, I was on a run, and I had to re-listen to that part, because I was like, did they just say what I think they said?
DEE: He was like, it was over.
DEE: They were staying in a friend’s house.
DEE: They were drinking a little bit.
DEE: They went to get into the bed, and they had an argument over how small the bed was.
DEE: And he said, like, oh, I didn’t hit her.
DEE: I just pushed her, and she pushed me.
DEE: There was blood on the wall.
JEFF: Right.
DEE: There was blood on the wall in that room, and that’s how he describes it.
DEE: Not that, like…
JEFF: Well, okay.
JEFF: I mean, this episode is effectively, it’s about domestic abuse and why someone stays with an abuser, right?
JEFF: Like, they get into that, and I think it’s actually, like, I think it effectively gets into, like, why someone, like, a little bit about how Jules has a history of abusive men in her life and why she stays, why she defends him.
JEFF: And it’s not, it’s hard to grasp, I think, from the outside looking in, of, like, you hear these horrific stories, you think, like, how could she possibly stay with him?
JEFF: But I think this episode does a decent job of contextualizing it and giving Jules a chance to present her side.
JEFF: And you definitely, like, you just want her to leave him, right?
JEFF: Like, you just want her to be safe.
JEFF: But she never does.
DEE: And you hear, like, a lot of her friends, like, are like, oh, I’ll give you money, and you can flee the country, and you can flee the country for Ian.
DEE: And, like, you can only imagine that the reason behind that isn’t to help him out.
DEE: I do agree.
DEE: I think it did a really good job at dealing with this topic, giving Jules a chance to kind of explain her point of view, but also the hosts didn’t, which I liked, give their judgment on it.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: I think the closest they come to that, which I think is more just factual, is saying that abused women love their partners.
JEFF: They just want the abuse to stop.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Which I think sums it up pretty well.
JEFF: Yep.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Should we move on?
JEFF: Well, one that we should…
JEFF: So in terms of the storyline, at the end of this, the judge in the case issues a verdict basically validating most of the guard’s case.
DEE: Yeah.
JEFF: And notes that Ian basically just likes the limelight and he doesn’t have a good reputation that could be defamed.
DEE: Yep.
JEFF: And at the end of it, Ian has to actually flee Ireland.
JEFF: He goes to London.
DEE: He doesn’t have to.
DEE: He abandons Jules.
DEE: He decides to flee.
DEE: He gets a new persona, a new name, as he calls it for operational purposes.
DEE: He leaves Jules in the house on her own with people outside.
DEE: There was like a dead mouse or a dead rat left in their mailbox.
DEE: There was a noose tied to a tree in their garden.
DEE: I don’t condone any of that behavior at all from the community there, but he leaves her.
DEE: He leaves her to deal with that.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: And he basically goes to London, assumes this new character, this new backstory for himself until the money runs out and then he comes kind of crawling back.
DEE: For operational purposes.
JEFF: So that’s the end of that.
DEE: All right.
JEFF: All right.
DEE: Do you want to hear my really quick summary of Eleven?
DEE: Eleven is called Enemy Number One.
DEE: Another person who wants to be in the thick of it, but also then runs away.
DEE: That’s all I have.
DEE: That’s the synopsis of my notes for this episode.
JEFF: Yeah, that’s a pretty good synopsis.
JEFF: So Marie, we remember from earlier, she’s the one who was driving in a car, saw someone out on the road, called it in under the name Fiona.
JEFF: Then she turns out she’s this woman, Marie, who was out driving with the man who wasn’t her husband in the middle of the night.
JEFF: That’s why she was trying to not get involved, but she still seems to get herself involved.
JEFF: She’s both the best witness that the guards have, but also the worst witness that they have.
JEFF: This episode is basically all about her.
DEE: I felt sorry for her in parts, but there was one part where she basically said, I felt important.
DEE: That’s sad.
DEE: I’m sorry.
DEE: But also…
JEFF: Well, it sounds like the way it’s described, so she had this…
JEFF: She saw someone out on the road.
JEFF: I feel like there’s a version of this where she gets convinced that that person she saw was Ian.
DEE: We’ve spoken before in this podcast how witnesses are not reliable.
JEFF: Right.
JEFF: And she’s sort of convinced to say it’s Ian, and then she has, whether it’s a guilty conscience, whether it’s Ian getting to her, which is totally possible and we think maybe happened to, or his lawyer getting to her, that also seems to have maybe happened.
DEE: Or just her realizing it’s no fun for everyone in the area, such a tight-knit community, to know you are out with another man.
DEE: She had five children, like her husband, she had to deal with obviously like telling him about it, telling her kids about it, like the impact that this would have had on her children.
DEE: Like she could have just been like, you know what, it wasn’t him, I’m moving on.
JEFF: I think the irony is she initially called the police and gave a pseudonym, this Fiona name, and then because she didn’t want it to get out, that she was out driving around with this man in the middle of the night.
JEFF: But then what her husband gets suspicious of is the guards who keep coming back to her for more information.
JEFF: And eventually she has to tell her husband what happened.
DEE: Yeah.
JEFF: Yeah, I feel sorry for her, but also she acts inconsistently, I would say.
DEE: Well, she acts inconsistently, and she’s yet another person who is like, oh my goodness, poor me.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEE: No, not poor you.
DEE: Sometimes in life, it’s not about you.
DEE: Episode 12?
JEFF: Let’s go to episode 12.
JEFF: Episode 12 is called Loose Ends.
JEFF: Do you want to give your summary of this one?
DEE: What was the reason that they chose to spend four episodes focused on Ian Bailey and one on three or four other potential suspects?
DEE: And also in the midst of that, bringing in Marie Farrell, who, as we’ve spoken about from Enemy Number One, episode 11, she won’t even tell us the bleeding name of the guy she was out in the car with.
JEFF: Yeah, that’s my biggest takeaway from this episode.
JEFF: So yeah, there are a few other suspects, including a horse.
JEFF: There’s a guy who thinks, Oh my gosh, you almost just spit your beer on the microphone and that would have been amazing.
DEE: Just the way you put it was so serious.
DEE: And there was, in fact, a horse in this.
DEE: They do actually start, I think, the entire podcast by saying a horse.
DEE: But yeah, go on with the horse.
JEFF: Well, okay, so there was this other story from Sweden in 2008 where a woman was found dead and her husband was arrested.
JEFF: But then it turns out that there was an elk that was eating fermented apples.
JEFF: So a drunk elk that actually committed the crime.
JEFF: I’m making light of it.
JEFF: A person died, and this is serious.
JEFF: But it’s also kind of bizarre and crazy.
JEFF: And so there is a guy who thinks, well, maybe this murder was actually committed by a horse.
JEFF: But then, yes, like you said, there are other seemingly legitimate suspects who we have heard nothing about until episode 12.
JEFF: 12.
DEE: To know who else is large, who was large, and like to get drunk, like a drunk elk.
JEFF: Is it Ian Bailey?
DEE: It’s Ian Bailey.
DEE: Yes, we do have another suspect.
DEE: Apparently, at one point, there was talks that it might have been a guard.
DEE: Random.
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: Well, and there’s also, on that note, there’s, in this one we hear about from those recordings where the guards accidentally recorded themselves.
DEE: It’s like something from Father Ted.
DEE: Have you ever seen Father Ted?
JEFF: I have seen Father Ted.
JEFF: Where they admit, they discuss things like falsifying evidence, predating, like changing the date on statements, coercion.
JEFF: And there was an investigation into this that found, like, well, I feel like this is one of those, like, the police investigating the police, and what are they going to find?
JEFF: Like, maybe something was bad, but it wasn’t bad enough to do anything about it, and we’re all just going to move on.
JEFF: Anyway.
JEFF: And then, yeah, Marie.
JEFF: So Marie comes back.
DEE: Don’t forget the travel agent guy.
JEFF: Do you want to talk about the travel agent?
DEE: The travel agent, foreign guy, as they call him, the foreigner.
DEE: That was really interesting.
DEE: I’m like, why are we not talking about him a bit more?
DEE: Apparently, someone who, well, he wasn’t Irish, but he might have been European, if you know what I mean.
DEE: I think was one of the descriptions, which is just not surprising of a description from West Cork.
DEE: Is that offensive?
DEE: Did I say something offensive?
DEE: But anyway, basically, he goes to this travel agent and he wants to get out of the country two days after, a day after Sophie’s body is found.
DEE: And he’s also being spotted near in the town or something.
JEFF: Yeah, he matches Marie’s description of the man she saw on the road.
DEE: Yeah, so I don’t know.
DEE: Because at one stage, her description said a beret.
DEE: The guy is wearing a beret.
JEFF: Sounds French to me.
DEE: I mean, but if you’re trying to be inconspicuous in West Cork, you’re not going to go around with your beret on.
DEE: Like you’re going to go around with a flat cap on.
JEFF: You know who’s never described as inconspicuous in West Cork?
DEE: Is it someone who looks a bit like a drunk elk?
DEE: So anyway, Marie Farrell.
JEFF: Yeah, so she’s on the stand in the Ian’s trial, and she keeps naming names of who she was with in the car, and they’re like some dead guy that she got his name off a gravestone, and she’s just making up names, and we never find out who she was with.
DEE: Could it have been a guard that she was with?
JEFF: Do you think it was a guard?
DEE: I don’t know.
DEE: There was this random story about the guards trying to, I don’t know, she said the guards were in interviewing her, and then she came downstairs, and one of them was just like in the nip trying to get her to have sex with them.
DEE: Do you remember that?
DEE: This is so random.
JEFF: There’s one point where she’s on the stand, continuing to refuse to name this guy’s name, and she just gets up and walks out of court.
DEE: Yeah, I feel like that shouldn’t be allowed.
JEFF: Can you do that?
DEE: I don’t know.
DEE: I’ve never been in court before.
DEE: I’ll let you know.
JEFF: So, yeah, Marie says at one point how she just wants to live a quiet life.
DEE: Like, you don’t, Marie, you don’t.
JEFF: So, all right, before we move on, I think we get a little bit of glimpse here.
JEFF: We’re starting to get, this will come up in the next couple episodes, bits of pieces of evidence that Ian and Sophie knew each other.
JEFF: And that’s where this one ends.
JEFF: Then we can go on to 13.
JEFF: Was there anything else on 12 we should talk about?
JEFF: So 13 is called An Intimate Conviction.
JEFF: Do you want me to summarize this?
DEE: Go for it.
JEFF: All right.
JEFF: So I actually, a lot happened in this episode.
JEFF: This is the penultimate episode.
DEE: You delight with the use of that word, you set it and then you pause.
DEE: You’re like, look, I used a big word.
JEFF: That’s a good word.
JEFF: So we start with Pierre Louis, who is Sophie’s son.
JEFF: We learn that he kept the house that she had in West Cork, and he still goes there to visit.
JEFF: He spends some time there.
JEFF: And then we start to get into the French case against Ian.
JEFF: So they charge him in 2016.
JEFF: They basically hold a trial in absentia, which we’ll get more into.
JEFF: And this is largely thanks to Jean-Pierre Gazot, who is Sophie’s uncle.
DEE: A quantum physicist?
JEFF: Yeah, apparently world-renowned physicist.
JEFF: But he has organized this group, basically, of people who are sort of seeking justice for Sophie.
JEFF: And this led to this case.
JEFF: We can get into some of the details of how this is possible.
JEFF: But then, of course, we get a lot more of Ian relishing the spotlight.
JEFF: So a lot happens in this episode.
JEFF: I think this is a longer episode.
JEFF: The last two episodes, I think, are a little bit longer, and more stuff happens, especially in this one.
DEE: So I found half of this episode intriguing, focusing a bit more on Sophie, even just hearing from her uncle and from her son.
DEE: It was just, there was some really gorgeous aspects to it.
DEE: At the very end of the episode, just if I’m going to skip ahead for a second, there’s this gorgeous chat between Billy, who owns the pub that Sophie loved to have a tea and a scone in, and Pierre-Louis.
DEE: And apparently, like, Pierre-Louis has been coming for so many years now at this recording that him and Billy are having the chats and they’re talking about going out fishing and, oh, we’ll go out together next year.
DEE: And Billy’s like, well, if I’m still alive.
DEE: And Pierre-Louis is like, well, you haven’t gone yet.
DEE: There’s just this gorgeous interaction.
DEE: And like, Pierre-Louis mentions how when he’s there and he’s speaking and he’s a French accent, people have come up to him and said, oh, you’re here for Sophie.
DEE: And he’s like, they don’t call her Sophie Toscan du Plantier.
DEE: They don’t call her the French woman.
DEE: They don’t call her the woman who was murdered.
DEE: They don’t call her the director’s wife.
DEE: They call her Sophie as if she was like, she’s embedded now in the community.
DEE: And I think that comes like, it’s like a full circle moment of like the talk of the blow ins.
DEE: And it’s like, well, this community has actually taken her in and her son in.
DEE: And now he’s like, he feels welcome there, him and his daughters or his daughter and his son feel welcome there.
DEE: And I just thought that was a gorgeous moment.
DEE: And it felt a little bit like episode 13 and episode 14.
DEE: We were getting these gorgeous aspects of Sophie that I was craving for in all the other episodes.
DEE: I felt like we weren’t hearing from it.
DEE: So I really enjoyed that bit.
DEE: But the other half of it is going back to Ian being a feck in Egypt.
JEFF: Yeah, if I can share it.
JEFF: So on that note, we’re going to talk about the end first.
JEFF: So in my notes, how should I share this?
JEFF: Let me just read what I wrote in my notes, and then we can explain it.
JEFF: So one line to the next.
JEFF: I have a line about Ian where I wrote, he’s a raging ass, late, quote, can’t start without me so many times, tell six month pregnant woman to get out of his way, carrying a volume of his poetry, fuck this guy.
JEFF: So that’s one line that I wrote.
JEFF: And then the very next line is Pierre-Louis holding on to Ireland and a quote that he says, this is Sophie’s son, before dying she loved this place.
JEFF: It’s a good place.
JEFF: It’s a good place.
JEFF: And it’s such a contrast between, like it’s so, yeah, you’re right.
JEFF: It’s so sweet the way this ends and the way it comes back to Sophie, which is what we wanted, right?
JEFF: We talked about that in the last one.
JEFF: Like we wanted less of Ian, more of Sophie, and we finally get that in 13 and 14.
JEFF: But yeah, it is, there’s this bit in the middle about Ian that was pretty off-putting.
DEE: And I wonder, is that the point of it?
DEE: Like, is that like, okay, we’ve been Ian heavy now, and then we’re going to do this kind of comparison, this wood juxtaposition work here between like Ian’s like self-centered focus and like his woe is me.
DEE: I am the man attitude.
DEE: I’ve been wronged here versus Pierre Louis, speaking about his mum, Pierre Louis has been wronged.
DEE: He was robbed of his mother at 15.
DEE: He was robbed of her.
DEE: And yet he has this gorgeous outlook on life and how things are going, even though he’s obviously hurting and he’s grieving.
DEE: So you’ve got this comparison.
DEE: Does juxtaposition work there?
JEFF: Juxtaposition is the right word.
JEFF: Yeah, I think so.
JEFF: I think so.
JEFF: Well, and we should talk a little bit.
JEFF: Like I said, there’s a lot that happens in this episode.
JEFF: I want to talk a little bit about this trial in absentia and why this is a thing that is happening.
DEE: It’s an interesting thing that can happen in France.
DEE: I found some of the legal aspects of that quite interesting.
DEE: Did you?
JEFF: Yeah.
JEFF: I didn’t find…
JEFF: No, go ahead.
JEFF: There’s this French law that goes back to Napoleon’s time.
JEFF: It goes back to colonial times, which is not the best legacy.
JEFF: Why so, Jeff?
JEFF: When France was colonizing the world, they were like, basically, hey, if a crime happens in one of our colonies, we don’t want those local laws to dictate what happens.
JEFF: We want to be able to use our laws.
DEE: They have no trust in any other country.
DEE: They don’t speak favorably of the Irish legal system.
JEFF: No, there’s a lot of the French and the Irish talking some shit about each other.
JEFF: How did you feel about that?
DEE: As in like personally being Irish?
JEFF: Sure.
DEE: I mean, I think it’s totally different in comparing the French legal system and the Irish legal system when Ireland’s only been like established as like a republic for about a hundred years.
JEFF: They called you soft.
JEFF: They said the Irish legal system is soft.
DEE: Yeah, did you hear how they dealt with evidence that was later thrown out by the Irish government?
DEE: Is it soft or is it fair?
DEE: More fair.
DEE: They in France were discussing basically how someone has to come and prove their innocence.
DEE: Is that how you think a legal system should run, Jeff?
JEFF: I mean, that’s not how it works in America.
JEFF: The bastion of democracy in the world.
DEE: Okay, so I wasn’t personally offended by it because I feel like the French were being a bit French here.
JEFF: There was a great line from Ian’s, one of his lawyers saying, don’t talk to me about the bloody French.
JEFF: But okay, okay, so say what you will about the French system.
JEFF: They are willing to effectively put Ian on trial in absentia.
JEFF: They try to extradite him, but Ireland will not extradite someone.
DEE: So interesting.
DEE: I find this extremely interesting.
DEE: So Ireland won’t extradite someone.
DEE: It’s within our legal system.
DEE: We won’t extradite someone just for questioning, but if they are charged, we will.
DEE: But it meant basically that from this, I can’t remember what year this happened, but from when this happened in France to Ian’s death earlier this year, he couldn’t leave the country.
JEFF: Yeah, this was 2016.
DEE: He couldn’t go back to England for his mother’s funeral, for the birth of any of his, or the weddings of any of his nieces or nephews.
DEE: Like he wouldn’t be able to leave the country because if he went to a different European country, he could be nabbed by the French.
JEFF: Well, and speaking of which, there was this reference to this case where there was a 14-year-old who was murdered.
JEFF: The suspect was trialed again in absentia, just like Ian was here.
JEFF: And the victim’s father basically hired some people to kidnap the suspect, take them across the border into France, leave them tied up and gagged.
JEFF: And the way the French law works is, okay, so we tried you in absentia, we found you guilty.
JEFF: Now you’re in the country.
JEFF: We’re going to retry you.
JEFF: That person got retried, was found guilty, and is now in prison.
JEFF: So Ian, I think, lived the rest of his life sort of in fear of like a car coming down the driveway or like someone coming and taking him because that could have happened at any time.
JEFF: That has happened to people just to get them across the border to face punishment in France.
DEE: Indeed.
JEFF: Well, and you, okay, and you made reference to, so this happened in 2016, and the arrest warrant came out in 2017.
JEFF: So he, and then Ian, so we’ll get, we can cover this, we covered the last episode, but Ian died in 2024, January 2024.
JEFF: So the French will never get their chance to try him in person.
DEE: No, they won’t, and yeah.
JEFF: All right, should we move on to 14, the last episode?
JEFF: This is the last one.
DEE: He sees Sophie everywhere as the last episode.
DEE: Okay, so my summary is, we just hear a lot of little snippets from Sophie’s friends.
DEE: We’re hearing of the trial, we’re hearing of a couple of loose ends, I suppose.
DEE: I know that episode 13 was called loose ends, wasn’t it?
DEE: Oh no, sorry, 12 was.
DEE: But we hear all these small snippets that I’m like, hi, I want more information about that.
DEE: Why are we so Ian Bailey heavy and not giving me information about GateGate?
JEFF: Yeah, we have to talk about GateGate.
DEE: So one of the things that was found beside Sophie’s body was an iron gate from the lane.
DEE: And somehow it went missing in evidence.
DEE: How the fact you lose a gate?
JEFF: It’s a big gate too.
DEE: It’s a big gate.
DEE: Anyway, there’s this one sentence being like people started to call it GateGate.
JEFF: Maybe my favorite thing from all 14 episodes.
JEFF: What?
JEFF: Just when you’re tired of things being called, you know, like PizzaGate or whatever, GateGate is the best, right?
DEE: But yeah, like we got this lovely, another really nice part of Sophie’s friends speaking out and being afraid that on trial they didn’t speak out well enough about her.
DEE: They didn’t like really show.
DEE: They didn’t really like depict her as the like lovely, funny, kind, like goofy person she was that they weren’t like really able to.
DEE: I just loved hearing from her friends.
DEE: I thought it was so gorgeous.
DEE: And then we have Pierre Louis who goes to West Cork and he stands up before the congregation at Mass, which I just like it’s such a like it’s really trying to embed yourself and like really trying to connect with the community if you are going to Mass and speaking with the congregation.
DEE: But standing up before them and just really speaking on behalf of his mother or like about his mother.
DEE: And I just thought there was something so lovely about the way he spoke about her, like to those people, kind of making them feel important in his life because he felt like the community was important to his mother.
DEE: Yeah, I just well so much here, Jeff.
DEE: And I just I know we’ve said this, but like why was this like this, Sophie, like her friend speaking about it, her son speaking up, like why was this so segregated from the rest of the podcast?
DEE: Like why wasn’t this brought in throughout?
JEFF: I don’t know.
JEFF: I don’t know.
JEFF: I think it should have been like we spent so much time with Ian throughout, and it’s just in 13 and 14 where we get this.
JEFF: We get we get Pierre-Louis, we get Fred, the cousin, we get we get all of these these friends and relatives that that I wish.
JEFF: Yeah, I wish we’d gotten earlier.
JEFF: There’s also this bit about one of her last projects.
JEFF: He Sees Folds Everywhere, which is ends up being sort of the metaphor that we end on, right?
JEFF: Where we’ve heard about this before that so Pierre-Louis, the son kept the house that where Sophie lived in West Cork, including keeping her her coat hangs on the back of the kitchen door.
JEFF: So it’s it’s and we hear like the metaphor in this this project is about like how people like the clothes they wear like they leave a part of themselves in the clothes they wear.
JEFF: And so it’s it’s making this case that like there’s a part of Sophie in that coat that’s still hanging on the door that’s still there.
JEFF: And that’s part of why they go back to this place.
JEFF: And yeah, it’s a really nice, I think, note to end on.
JEFF: But that’s at the end of this episode, which a lot of this episode is still on the trial, the the French trial in absentia, where we hear a bunch of things about the just the way the trial was was run.
JEFF: And yeah, I don’t know.
JEFF: I don’t know.
JEFF: I like we should talk about like the outcome of the trial is that Ian was found guilty and was given a sentence of 25 years in prison.
JEFF: But of course, he was never extradited, so he never served that sentence.
JEFF: But there’s I feel like there’s we started this off saying it was a cold case way back.
JEFF: And I feel like three months ago, we started talking about this podcast.
JEFF: But we do have someone who was found guilty in a certain kind of court, right?
JEFF: Like he was they talk about how he was an Englishman on trial in a French court for a crime committed in Ireland.
JEFF: Sure.
JEFF: But he did get found guilty and sentenced to 25 years.
JEFF: So he is the one person who was there was a trial.
JEFF: He was found guilty.
JEFF: We do have that sort of closure on this.
JEFF: And I think the family found some level of closure in this.
JEFF: They wanted him to go to prison.
DEE: Really, I think that’s like one of the main things is like the family getting closure on this.
DEE: They wanted him to go to prison.
DEE: Yeah, it’s hard to.
DEE: I don’t really feel like after listening to this whole podcast, I feel like I have a I have feelings towards Ian Bailey.
DEE: Like, do I really feel after hearing all of the evidence that’s put across in this podcast that he’s guilty?
DEE: Like, he’s definitely guilty of being a feckin idiot and an awful monster and like a violent bleep.
DEE: But like, I would say hedge of my bets if I have to go for it.
DEE: I’m saying he’s guilty of this murder.
DEE: Yes.
DEE: But do I really feel like there’s enough evidence that was collected in the right way to put him away?
DEE: Like, I don’t think there was.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEE: I really don’t think there was.
DEE: And yeah, I get what you mean about like, well, some court said that the English man who was in Ireland murdered the French woman.
DEE: Like, some court did.
DEE: But like, do you really feel it was fair?
JEFF: I was going to ask you that.
JEFF: Like, do you think a trial in absentia is fair?
JEFF: Right.
JEFF: Like, he has no opportunity to refute the evidence.
JEFF: He has no opportunity, like his lawyers, his lawyers also boycott of the trial.
JEFF: So there’s no one there to give the other side.
JEFF: What do you think about that?
DEE: I mean, I don’t know.
DEE: I’ve never been in his position or anyone’s position where you’d have to like stand up and like, you know, try and make yourself look innocent.
DEE: I don’t know why.
DEE: I don’t know how I feel about it morally.
DEE: I feel like if I was on, if I was within Sophie’s family or friend circle, I’d be saying like, this is what I want.
DEE: And I’m sure there’s plenty of families out there who would feel like that this, well, he won’t come to us, but at least we can have this trial and we can have our day and we can say our piece.
DEE: And it was noted here how the French really do give a voice to the friends and family of the victim, which I think is so important.
DEE: And it’s not something that the Irish police did in this case.
DEE: The only time that Sophie’s family came over, they were dismissed.
DEE: They were treated really poorly.
DEE: But I think what Ian did, if I’m being really honest, is he didn’t go over because A, he knew he’d be found guilty.
DEE: And B, it ends the story, doesn’t it?
DEE: He’s no longer center of attention if he’s actually found guilty and he’s put into prison.
DEE: He’s gone.
DEE: He’s out of the center.
DEE: So does that prove that he’s more guilty?
DEE: Like what we haven’t discussed at all is like, what if he was innocent?
DEE: What if he was innocent and he went through all of this?
DEE: He’s still a prick, even if he was innocent.
DEE: He’s still a monster, a violent monster.
DEE: But what if this is not something that he did, and he was brought through this for 20 or 30 years?
DEE: I don’t sympathize with him.
DEE: I really don’t.
DEE: I don’t think he’s likable.
DEE: I think he’s, as I said, a violent monster.
DEE: But like, you know, we don’t have, it is a cold case.
DEE: I know you said, like at the start, we said it was a cold case, but it is a cold case in my mind.
DEE: This trial doesn’t prove, unfortunately for me, that it was definitively him.
JEFF: Yeah, actually, yeah, that’s a really good point.
JEFF: In my notes for episode 12, I just, I wrote down, what happens to Ian’s career if he’s cleared?
JEFF: Does he maybe not want that?
JEFF: Like if his name had been cleared back in like 1997, he doesn’t have a career.
JEFF: Like he has built, he built a career as a journalist, as a poet, as a public figure of sorts off of this case.
DEE: And the media lied to him too.
DEE: And the public.
JEFF: Oh, very much so.
DEE: Because people wanted to hear about us.
JEFF: Yeah.
DEE: And this, I think, is what has frustrated me about this podcast, is they just did the same thing.
DEE: I feel like this story could have been told in a way where Ian Bailey was not the central figure, and it didn’t inflate his ego.
DEE: Whether he is guilty or innocent, this podcast inflates his ego.
DEE: It puts him at the center.
JEFF: Like that, he struck me as that type of narcissist, that type of self-serving narcissist who just wants everyone to talk about him all the time.
JEFF: And that’s his end goal.
JEFF: And yes, he does some monstrous things.
JEFF: They both do monstrous things.
JEFF: But at the end of the day, it’s really just about attention.
DEE: Yeah, and my point is that this podcast, it’s like the hosts know that as they’re going through it, like they can see it.
DEE: You can hear their irritation, their patience is waning with them.
DEE: And yet they produce how, like percentage-wise, how much of this podcast is about, directly about Ian Bailey.
JEFF: Most, most of this podcast is about him.
DEE: And I think that’s, I think that’s a miss on their part.
JEFF: Well, I agree.
JEFF: And it’s not just this podcast, right?
JEFF: Like there have been multiple documentaries about this.
JEFF: There have been multiple podcasts about this.
JEFF: There’s been a significant amount of journalism about this case.
JEFF: Like this has been, for the last, what, however long this has been, 20 years, more than that, 30 years, 20, almost 30 years, there have been a lot of people sort of making careers off of this case.
JEFF: And he has been, he had been, a very willing participant in that.
DEE: Yeah, but yeah, I think that’s true.
DEE: And I don’t mean to say it was just the hosts here.
DEE: I just think when you’re doing a podcast on this, you’ve got this unique opportunity, especially you’re living there for two years, like you’re really absorbed in it.
DEE: I think you have a unique opportunity to tell the story that isn’t being told by all the other media outlets.
DEE: And that story is Sophie’s story.
DEE: It’s not Ian Bailey’s story.
DEE: It’s Sophie’s story.
DEE: And we didn’t get that.
JEFF: Yeah, every time that Pierre Louis was quoted, I definitely thought like, oh, I want more of this.
DEE: Less episodes, more percent on like higher percentage on Sophie and Sophie’s family and what she was like.
JEFF: Yeah, I agree.
JEFF: Well, we should summarize this.
JEFF: I think, Dee, what do you think in the end?
JEFF: It sounds like you’re coming down kind of critical on this one.
DEE: I’m coming down critical on it, but if someone’s asked me if they should listen, I’m like, absolutely.
DEE: I think I think there was so much fascination for me in this.
DEE: I loved the setting of the community.
DEE: I thought that was gorgeous.
DEE: As I said, I loved the circle back to how the community has really like kind of adopted Pierre-Louis for want of a better word and his children into it.
DEE: I did enjoy hearing like the kind of conflict between the French and the Irish legal system because that was not something I was aware of before.
DEE: I thought there was a lot of like interesting elements.
DEE: I think there’s a lot that could be cut out.
DEE: If I’m going to cut out stuff, I don’t need all this secret agent, double agent, triple agent crap that was in the middle of there.
DEE: Just give a line about how the guards accidentally tape themselves and throw in a few bleepers on that or outtakes on that.
DEE: But I don’t know, I just think there was a lot of this that could have been cut down.
DEE: We’re at 14 episodes.
DEE: I think you could easily have gotten it down to maybe seven episodes with, as I said, a higher percent on Sophie.
JEFF: I would agree.
JEFF: I think they get lost in the weeds in those middle episodes or late episodes, just sort of caught up in the Ian Bailey show.
JEFF: And I could do with less of that.
JEFF: I could do without the mad moon man wizard stuff.
DEE: And all these recordings of him being like, I’ve created a video diary to document my research because I’m an investigative journalist.
DEE: You’re not an investigative journalist.
DEE: Nobody’s working with you because you’re a fucking moron.
JEFF: He’s just an asshole.
DEE: That’s the summary.
DEE: That’s the tagline.
DEE: He’s just an asshole.
JEFF: All right.
JEFF: We did it.
JEFF: We got through West Cork.
DEE: Celebrate good times.
JEFF: Thank Next time, we’re bringing you something new.
JEFF: Look for a special bonus episode of our show where we discuss a single episode of a series.
DEE: We’ll be looking at the Fox True Crime podcast with Emily Campagno.
JEFF: Specifically, we’re going to be talking about one episode.
JEFF: It is titled, Closing the Cold Case of Karen Stitt.
DEE: This is a local story to us.
DEE: It’s about a murder that happened in Sunnyvale, California.
JEFF: And it’s also about this remarkable cold case detective, and how he went about solving, yes, solving, solving a case that was cold for over 30 years.
DEE: That’s next time on So Much Crime.
JEFF: So Little Time.
DEE: So Much Crime, So Little Time is a production of MimeGov Media.
DEE: The executive producer is Paxton Calariso.
DEE: Our associate producer is Blythe Tai.
DEE: The music was composed by Vyacheslav Starostin.
DEE: If you haven’t done it yet, please subscribe to this show in your podcast app.
DEE: Don’t forget to give us a five-star rating and a review.
DEE: Even better, tell your friends.
DEE: To join the discussion, look for us on social media.
DEE: Check out the show notes for all the links.
DEE: Thanks for listening.
